winni need some help and suggestion

[VJ AIWAZ]

how this guy get a red bull gig and how did they let him get away with this

goto about 1:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDqx0GisDdc

[Bradfo69]

Yes, Hivelaser was the screen name. A number of people here do know him. dsli_jon, Darcean and others. As a matter of fact, I think Hives promo video on youtube was shot using Darceans beast of a projector built by CT Lasers.

[kecked]

If he doesn't pay I am willing to help send her some cash. If we gang together I think we could make a nice dent in the debt for her and not break the bank for any one of us. Good people desire support no matter if you know them personally or not. In fact why don't we do it this way. 80% goes to her and 20% to PL. Call it a fund raiser.

80 people @100=8000 =6400 to her and 1600 to pl.

Public TV does it why not us.

[The_Doctor]

Why not set up a show? It's the best way to raise money fast. And of all the people in all the world, there are few better able to make a show that can do this. It raises more money from more people, but they get something good for their money too. I mean, members of the general public.. I mentioned it on page one of this thread, but I'm saying it again because if we just make donations it like blowing all at once. If there is a show made with those donations, the money eventually raised will be like training that blow to a fine jet, drawing in a whole lot more air. Engineers who do this will have no doubts which method is vastly more effective. And cooler.

[kecked]

I took part in the laserjams in the early 2000's I am happy to do so again. Maybe we get shows together and give them to those who donate. I give ALL of my work away for free anyways. Once a hobby always a hobby for me. I do it for the love of the art.

[The_Doctor]

Most of the gigs I remember were done by bands not getting much out of it, a bit of beer money mostly. I don't think Disorder, Chaos UK, even Amebix, made a lot, except occasionally on a vinyl record release. It wasn't a thing done for money, those who wanted it found other ways to get that, but the one time it was directly useful was benefit gigs. Bands would get together, hire a hall, do a whole evening. Anyone who wanted in could buy a very cheap ticket, but the total raised would help fund a festival each year. This method is extremely popular, it's been done here for decades. I reckon one show in a UK city, and one in a US city, and one in mainland Europe, might do it. I've read about the various LEM's. How many times do the general public get to see that kind of laser display? It's rare. The main problem would be politely turning people away when there were too many.

It may even be enough just to use a few LEM's with a public night. That way very little extra has to be arranged. A few good DJ's, live bands who like lasers and need some interesting event to help them get noticed. They might want in, pay or no pay.

[buffo]

Ok, now that his name is out there, we can talk openly about Anton Sutterlueti and his company "Hive Laser." As Mimi already mentioned above, he has two other companies that he also operates. "Hive 8" is supposed to be for Real Time 3D Services (whatever that is) plus Multimedia, Video Projection, and Programming. Then there's "Hive 8 Lab", which he claims is for Prototypes, Engineering Services (HA! This guy is no engineer!), CNC Fabrication, and CAD / CAM work. "Hive Laser" itself is supposed to be for Laser and Multimedia shows.

I first contacted Anton by phone on Thursday, August 8th, 2013. We spoke on the phone for about 45 minutes. I told him who I was, I mentioned PhotonLexicon, and I explained that Winni had asked me to contact him about the missing $6500 he still owed. I also mentioned that I had just visited his website (www.hivelaser.com), and he had screwed up the home page. He was obviously using a pre-paid web template for his site, and the configuration panel for the template was visible to anyone who visited the site! You couldn't change anything, but the template settings were still visible and were BLATANTLY obvious. To say that it looked unprofessional would be an understatement.

Anton thanked me for the information about his site, and said he would fix it right away. He also said that he was sorry for not paying GoldenstarLaser. He claimed to have been in a car accident recently, and he said he had just gotten out of the hospital that day. We chatted about lots of different topics, and by the end of our call I felt that I had established a rapport with him. He readily admitted that he still owed his debt to Winni at Goldenstarlaser, and he sounded eager to take care of it. After our phone conversation, I felt very confident that this was all a missunderstanding and Anton would take care of the debt right away.

On the phone, Anton is a very smooth talker. He will put you at ease, and he's got lots of stories to share to make you feel comfortable. He claimed to have a CNC mill, a CNC router, and a CNC lathe in his shop. He told me he was working on a new projector case design, and he sent me some mock-ups. As you can see by the pictures below, they are needlessly complicated, and I mentioned this to him in a later e-mail. It was the first sign that Anton probably didn't know as much as he claimed he did (Seriously - who would build such a hideously complex case? And what purpose would all that extra machining serve?)



Anton also clamed to be working on an MPU thermal management board (combination TEC driver and temp readout), a laser diode driver, an aluminum diode laser module, and an ILDA break-out board with switches for x and y inversion. I don't have any more information on the driver, the ILDA board, or the thermal board, but I do have a picture of his proposed laser module. And again, it seemed needlessly complicated. (Why all the extra machining?)



One thing that came out of our initial phone conversation was the idea of having Anton do some work for me with his CNC machining tools. I had been looking for a machine shop that would be willing to do some small jobs for me, and Anton sounded very interested in the idea. In addition to helping me with the machining I needed to get done, I felt that this would be another link between us that could prove useful in convincing Anton to pay his debts.

I sent Anton some drawings of an adjustable laser diode mount that Bob Snyder (CDBeam) came up with and asked if he would be interested in machining some of the mounts to support the PL-Spec projector project. He sounded very interested, so over the course of 5 or 6 e-mails (and a few phone calls) we made plans to have him make a few prototypes to send me for evaluation. At this time I gently reminded him again that Goldenstar still had not been paid, and he said that he would be taking care of this in a day or two.

Fast forward to August 27th. Nearly 3 weeks later, and no word from Anton. (Also, no payment to Goldenstar.) I e-mailed Anton to see what was going on, and he replied that he was busy installing an LED Video wall and had not had the time to work on the diode mounts or to go to the bank to send payment to Goldenstar. I thought this was very strange, since he claimed to be recovering from a serious car accident the last time we spoke. After spending 5 days in the hospital, it's not normal to just run right out and start climbing ladders to install an LED video wall...

Around this time I also reminded him that his website STILL showed the configuration panel for the template he was using. He said that he meant to take care of that, but had not had time... Later that day he sent me a message asking me for a convenient time for him to call me to discuss the adjustable diode mount project. I gave him my schedule details, and then I waited. No phone calls. I tried calling him, but his office voice-mail didn't let me leave a message, and he never answered his cell phone. (Though I did leave several messages for him.)

On September 3rd, I send Anton another e-mail asking why he never called and requesting a status update on the machining project. He claimed that he had "multiple rentals" that past week, and that he had been too busy to call. He then asked for my schedule for the next week so we could coordinate a time to get in touch by phone again. After going over a few options, he said he would call on the 5th for sure. And, of course, he never did.

On September 6th, I sent him another e-mail asking what happened to his scheduled call. No response. At this point I was pretty sure that he was leading me on, but I kept trying to reach him anyway.

On September 12th, I managed to catch him on his cell phone. Interestingly enough, it was one of only two times I called him from my work phone. (All other calls were from my cell phone.) I think the only reason he answered the call was because he didn't recognize the number. Anyway, we talked for a while, and he said he would be starting to machine the adjustable diode mounts for me that day. I told him I would send an e-mail with my shipping address so he could send them to me, and I asked him to send me his paypal address so I could send him some money to cover the materials and shipping costs.

While on the phone with him, I reminded him that Winni at GoldenstarLaser *STILL* had not been paid the money he owed. He sounded surprised, and claimed that his "business associate" had already taken care of that debt the week before. I told him it must be a missunderstanding, and said that I would pass this on to Winni.

On September 13th, I sent Anton an E-mail sumarizing what we talked about on the phone the previous day. I gave him my shipping address, and I also mentioned that I had e-mailed Winni, and she replied that the bill had not been paid yet. This marks the turning point for the relationship I had with Anton. Up until this point, our conversations had been very cordial, even friendly. Despite the fact that I knew the debt was already several months old when I got involved, I always acted as if it was something recent, and I never let on that I doubted him when he told me why he had not paid yet.

However, behind the scenes, I had been digging into the history of "Hive Laser". First, I checked Regulations.gov. There was no listing for Anton Sutterlueti or any of his 3 companies on the site. That means he was almost certainly lying about having a laser light show variance with the CDRH. (Yes, paperwork can get lost, and it's remotely possible that his variance was never uploaded, but there should be a record of his initial application, as well as the replies sent out to acknowledge receipt of his annual reports. Highly unlikely that ALL those documents failed to get uploaded...)

What's more, he had claimed to be renting laser projectors to other companies. He told me on the phone that he had his manufacturer's variance, that he had recently assembled several 20-watt RGB projectors (from parts he imported from China), and he was planning on building several more to support his booming business. And again, no record of a manufacturer's variance on file for Anton or any of the 3 company names he held.

On October 8th, I send Anton an e-mail message with a very different tone. I explained that I had lost my faith in him. I explained the lack of communications, the failure to return calls, the recent failure of his office voice-mail system, and his continued ineptness with regard to his website (which at the time still showed the configuration tempate) had painted a picture of an irresponsible operator in my mind.

Then I hit him with the lack of a variance. No documents registered to his name or his company. And in our phone conversations, he had lamented about "illegal operators" and how they were hurting the business. Yet it was clear that he was just as illegal! I explained that I could not do business with someone who lies to their customers like that.

Finally, I pointed out that he still had not paid GoldenstarLaser for the equipment he purchased. Not paying your debts is a sign of unprofessionalism, and I told him that I refused to deal with people like that.

Anton replied to this message, and he sounded upset and hurt. He claimed to have a varianced projector that he purchased from Mark Arotsky at CT Lasers (Gottaluvlasers here on PL), and to prove it he sent me this picture of the ID sticker on the projector.



He said that he only uses this projector for shows. However, he already admitted earlier to doing a show with a pair of 20 watt RGB projectors. So of course, the first question I asked is - where is the picture of the other projector's certification sticker? No answer...

He also claimed that the projector was registered under a different company name (which he declined to name), and that was his excuse as to why "Hive Laser" doesn't have a variance listed. Obviously though, if he had a projector from Mark, he should have a variance as well, and it should be posted on Regulations.gov. And even if it was registered under a different company, his NAME would still be on the paperwork and would still be searchable. But again - remember, there are no records with his name. None.

I'm not even sure that the picture is actually his projector. It's entirely possible that he simply knows someone who has one of Mark's projectors and just took a picture to try to deflect my criticism. (Since the serial number is plainly visible on the certification label, Mark should be able to bounce it against his records. He could then confirm or deny the claim that Anton has multiple 20-watt RGB projectors from CT-Lasers...)

I answered his message on Oct 9th, and basically laid all my cards on the table. I explained all the lies I'd caught him in, including the lack of a manufacturer's variance or a product report for the 20 watt RGB projectors that he was illegally building and renting out. His answer to this was a half-hearted claim that Goldenstar was to blame. Here's a quote from his reply:

About Mimi and Winnie, there are some huge problems that you don't know about, first of all whatever they delivered was not legal at all, i had to file import regulations with costumes, then the lasers did not work and many other problems. They did not come one time, where 220V and many other problems, so the client that wanted them skipped out and I am left with them.

But of course, I already knew exactly what had happened, because Winni had told me months ago. Anton needed his lasers really fast, and in their haste to get the order out the door, one green laser was shipped with a 220 volt power supply instead of a 110v supply. There was another small problem with one of the ILDA break-out boards inside one of the units, and there might have been one other issue as well. I honestly can't remember for certain now, but I do recall being surprised at how minimal the issues were considering the magnitude of gear Anton had purchased and the speed at which it was delivered.

I replied to Anton with the above information, and basically called him a thief for not paying his debt to GoldenstarLaser. And that's when things got really ugly. Here is his last reply to me, received on October 9th:

goldstar will get there money as I told them. Just a fact, there are 10's of people on the forum and out there in the US who do illegal show with illegal projectors, I can name 10 on top of my head. I can name 5 clubs right now from Vegas to Los Angeles to Orange County, that have an will never file a variance for a lasers, so get of my case for designing a case that's safer then cases sold with a variance. Again this here is the case of the overreacting, selfridges, drama seeking PL member forum. There are so many cases on this on PL its not even funny.

I don't have to defend myself, a company, people I work for and with in front of you. You don't even know me as I don't know you, you had a phone conversation with me, that's about it. I don't own you or your company anything.

I also wish not to receive any communication from you anymore. Thank god something like this happened before I would ever have made something for you, I can just for see the drama that would have happened. I can't believe I ever offered my engineering services, lesson learned will never happen again.

In addition to the above message he sent to me, he also sent this message to Winni:

so i noticed you stirring up things here in the US about me, that is good to know. I urge you to stop, or i will file legal actions against your company in a US court for a import ban, and i can tell you, you will have a hard time getting products into here with out the legal paperwork that you need to provide.

All your products imported are into the US are illegal, they do not follow regulations, as well they are not registered with any authorities like the CDHR and the FDA. You put labels on there with serial numbers that do not exist. I have had big problems just accepting the products from you, they ask me a lot of questions and so on, also you do not report any taxes paid to the US which is something else i have had to explain. Then at last your missing complete UL and CE
certifications, there are no products listed with your company name and so on.

So now Anton is justifying his illegal activities to me by saying that "everyone else is doing it", while at the same time he berates Goldenstar because he thinks they are to blame...

I just don't get this guy.

Anyway, that's my experience with Anton. Several people have contacted me privately, and so far the consensus seems to be that he's done this exact sort of thing before, and he's someone to stay away from at all costs. It's a damned shame Winni didn't know that before she tried to help him out.

If anyone feels like taking up the torch and giving this chucklehead a piece of their mind, the last two working phone numbers I have for Anton are:

office: 213 915 8404
cell: 213 359 2099

As for me, I've done all I can. If Anton decides to make good on the debt, I might be inclined to change my mind about him. But for now, it's pretty clear to me that he's a liar and a thief, and I wouldn't trust him any further than I could throw him.

Adam

[absolom7691]

Despicable. Absolutely despicable. I find that whenever someone gets extremely defensive and exerts blame on someone, they are the ones in the wrong. In short, what an asshole.

I was thinking of couple of ways that we could help Winni out. The most obvious is a direct donation, if she has a paypal address. Someone already mentioned a charity show. There is artwork that people could sell, if they didn't mind donating. Another way could be an E-raffle, if someone wanted to put up a product of theirs, we could buy "tickets" at $5, $10, or $20 apiece and have a drawing for the prize and the proceeds can go to Winni.

I am not interested in paying Anton's debt for him but my concern is for Winni. I have not bought anything from her but I have heard nothing but good things about her from so many members here.

[badger1666]

Be warned dont do any kind if fund raising for winni with any sort
If gift or prize ,as anyone recieving the funds for it through paypal
Will be barred for life from having a paypal account.
As i found out when i did fund raising for admin a while back
If anything is done we should just band together and each just send a few $$ each
As a gift and be done with it.
@ mimi if you read this dont be to harsh on winni, we all make mistakes in life.
and she just happened to be tricked by a con man.
Could have been anyone at goldenstar that got tricked by him even you, so please take it easy on her.
And we as a family on photonlexicon are here to help if needed.
@winni , if you want to set up a paypal account to recieve gift payments, i am happy to start of with a $70 payment for a start
And will send more when i get paid.

[The_Doctor]

Well, when in a hole, stop digging, says I. He could make most of it go away just be sending the gear back to Winni in a well-packed box. Self preservation, damage limitation. Rifts heal, but the question is now, how big a scar does he want to carry? I won't get on the phone. Too expensive from the UK, not really my business, and I'm pretty sure he's reading this. On the other hand it's good to know that someone (Buffo) is making this a bit of business people won't forget. A lot to learn from in this one.

The main thing seems to be that if people respect enough, then even without variances, there are people managing enough good practise to slide under the radar. But if there's enough ill will, it shits on everyone and people start to get hurt one way or another. There's no point hating this guy so I hope people don't. Between enough of us, six grand isn't that hard to fix, especially if doing it helps heal this thing faster. It won't bail him out, only he can do that. And how he does it is his business.