Well, Looks like I got booted on LPF.

[Ped078]

It doesnt matter who started what, both sides participated. And it was left to run its course, which is totally against what everyone preaches on the forum. I've seen whole threads deleted for less. I've seen people banned for less. Everyone lost IMO. Avery lost thousands, Jerry lost his forum business, and respected members acted like children infront of the whole forum, and got away with it. A simple 3 day ban for everyone involved would have stopped it. I dont know what Ave was thinking. Not his brightest moment.

EDIT: * In fact CrazyJay was perm banned shortly after that for fighting with Jerry again. So you can see why Jerry believed he would be perm banned for fighting again.

Yeah I'm not talking about what's gone on in the past, I was referring to the thread were he was called out.
There is no real way to dress it up or justify it, he got called out, the proof is in the thread, not hearsay, not "he said she said", PROOF.
Also, you say "it doesn't matter who started what".., I, and I'm sure most other people would disagree with that, put up or shut up, if you're going to take a stab at a competitors product, make sure you have data or facts to back it up, Jerry had them, they were just inaccurate .
Instead of dishing out 3 day bans, he could have just come back to the thread and said "sorry", but he just couldn't do it, and that's why all this started.
And this is the opinion of the majority of people who Iv'e spoken too, not just mine even Bob said it up there^^.
If Jerry wanted to start a "fight" , he should have made sure he could win it.

Regards

Edit, in reply to your edit2.

As I said earlier, it was discussed in the Bl4ckh0le, and at that time the decision was made to leave them to it, and just keep an eye on it.
Despite Jerry thinking for this reason, or that reason, he was going to be banned, it wasn't on the cards yet . (my cards anyway).

Reading between the lines, your offering reasons as to why he didn't reply yes? if so, anyone with an ounce of intelligence know the fact is, Jerry didn't reply because he was wrong, and that's the ONLY reason, lets not dress it up.

[Eidetic]

If there was no sincerity on my words I would not have contacted you through PM numerous times to patch things up and move forward in a civil manner. If I was trying to manipulate you I'd be ragging on you like the old days. Lets face it, I have your number, you're easy. Have I done that? Last time was like 4 years ago. There are no benefits for me to get you to bury the hatchet. You have nothing I want, you have no pull in areas where I'm in need, I dont care about your opinions, and I dont need your advice. So if I wasnt sincere why would I waste my time?

I told you 4 years ago to NOT contact me, yet you did. It's obvious to me that you have nothing to do all day but post on the internet. Chatter, chatter, chatter. You can't just STFU. The benefits to you for the illusion of wanting to "bury a hatchet" with me are the appearance of being a "nice guy" in front of everyone else here, the trolling (which you love to do because you grew up doing it and you're sooo good at it) of me with continuous false statements about the past, and the reinforcement of your attempts to make me out to be "the bad guy" for not wanting to forgive your many years of fight-pickin', bullying behavior.

The only reason I joined both forums at the same time in 2009 was to post about old lasers. If I hadn't been "trolled, baited, and banned" by you, Jerry, and your buddies there (with the full support of Daguin and Webmaster Neo), there'd have as little from me there as there is here and it would be by far mostly about lasers. As it is here. Except, because of your actions, drama from there continues to take my time. If you didn't want to drag your life there over to here, you'd have made a fresh start here with a new name and avatar (sorry to all those who believe symbols are meaningless). It would've been a gesture. "Actions speak louder than words."

[TechJunkie]

Yeah I'm not talking about what's gone on in the past, I was referring to the thread were he was called out.
There is no real way to dress it up or justify it, he got called out, the proof is in the thread, not hearsay, not "he said she said", PROOF.
Also, you say "it doesn't matter who started what".., I, and I'm sure most other people would disagree with that, put up or shut up, if you're going to take a stab at a competitors product, make sure you have data or facts to back it up, Jerry had them, they were just inaccurate .
Instead of dishing out 3 day bans, he could have just come back to the thread and said "sorry", but he just couldn't do it, and that's why all this started.
And this is the opinion of the majority of people who Iv'e spoken too, not just mine even Bob said it up there^^.
If Jerry wanted to start a "fight" , he should have made sure he could win it.

Once again no one is deputing that, I dont know why you keep bringing it up. I'm talking about the neg rep brigade. Can we please focus on that. This is why both parties were wrong. They, the group, should have never taken it to that level. They were wrong, and Ave was wrong to let it go on for 2 months. The reps had nothing to do with the thread you are talking about, because the majority of them were on unrelated past posts. They were randomly picking posts to bust his balls, and thats against the forums TOS. I've been banned for 1 neg rep before, Jerry got months of reps for one topic. They were using the rep system to piss him off so bad he'd lose his cool and get banned. All those guys know Jerry was warned for fighting in the past. They were all there when he got warned. No matter how you, or anyone else wants to justify it, they should not have abused the rep system to get their point across. This has ALWAYS been a banable action. Even I, King Troll, would never stoop to gathering a group of people to rep someone to get my point across. Their intentions were obvious to all those who know the back story.

Edit, in reply to your edit2.

As I said earlier, it was discussed in the Bl4ckh0le, and at that time the decision was made to leave them to it, and just keep an eye on it.
Despite Jerry thinking for this reason, or that reason, he was going to be banned, it wasn't on the cards yet . (my cards anyway).

You, and everyone else in the Bl4ckh0le knew this, Jerry didnt. He can only act on what he is told, and he was told if he starts a fight on the forum one more time he will be perm banned. You're talking like the whole forum knew there was no ban in the cards. No one did except the mods, and Ave. How is he suppose to know the ban hammer wast on the table? With that rep you gave him warning him he could only come to one conclusion. You're trying to put your knowledge in his head, and it just doesnt work that way, sorry. Unless told directly no one can know what another is thinking.

Reading between the lines, your offering reasons as to why he didn't reply yes? if so, anyone with an ounce of intelligence know the fact is, Jerry didn't reply because he was wrong, and that's the ONLY reason, lets not dress it up.

No, there is no between the line here. I gave you the reason he left, not why he didnt reply. Do you really think he dumped his whole business because on the forum because he was proved wrong?? Once again, how dumb is that? I gave you a full account behind why he left. I was there from day 1 in the Ken and CJ days, to the end of it recently. I've always maintained an account, and read the forum just about everyday. I still talk to Jerry fairly regularly, so I know his end. I'm giving you an unbiast view of everything that transpired. I get you have your own firm beliefs, but there is much more to the story, and you;re refusing to look at it. If you dont want to accept this view I dont what else to say here. Bottom line, he left because he didnt want to get perm banned, it was not just because he was wrong. Think about man, he's been on the forum since 2008 with almost 15 THOUSAND posts to his name, then one day someone proves he's wrong and he just throws it all away because he doesnt want to admit he's wrong? You seriously believe this? No troll intended Peter, but you have no idea what you are talking about. Your opinions are based on assumptions, lack of info, and inside info that only you and a few other know. Jerry is my friend, I know why he left, and I'm trying to fill you in. I laid down the facts, not excuses. If you cant accept these facts then there is nothing more to talk about here.

[Stuka]

Hey guys -

I realize we're FAR from perfect on this forum, but overall, it's a pretty decent place, and for the most part seems to be on the minimal side of drama these days.

With that in mind -
how about keeping your LPF drama & crap at LPF or in PM's...

[TechJunkie]

I told you 4 years ago to NOT contact me, yet you did. It's obvious to me that you have nothing to do all day but post on the internet. Chatter, chatter, chatter.

No shit Bob, I'm disabled. So when I'm up at 2AM because I cant sleep because of pain I like to talk on the internet. During the days I'm busy, and have better things to do. I have 440 posts in ~5 months. That equates to 2.9 posts a day. I dont think anyone would consider this excessive posting. So let it go.

The benefits to you for the illusion of wanting to "bury a hatchet" with me are the appearance of being a "nice guy" in front of everyone else here, the trolling (which you love to do because you grew up doing it and you're sooo good at it) of me with continuous false statements about the past, and the reinforcement of your attempts to make me out to be "the bad guy" for not wanting to forgive your many years of fight-pickin', bullying behavior.

If I'm trying to portray to the forum that I'm a nice guy then why do I communicate my intentions to you through PMs?? No one can read the PMs Bob. I'm being honest with you and you're to dumb to see it. BTW screwing with online babies doesnt mean I'm not a nice guy. It just means I like to screw with internet babies. The people in the area I grew up in dont get mad. In fact I dont know anyone in the real world that doesnt like me. I'm a very funny, thoughtful, generous person. I just like to bust balls, obviously.

The only reason I joined both forums at the same time in 2009 was to post about old lasers. If I hadn't been "trolled, baited, and banned" by you, Jerry, and your buddies there (with the full support of Daguin and Webmaster Neo), there'd have as little from me there as there is here and it would be by far mostly about lasers. As it is here. Except, because of your actions, drama from there continues to take my time. If you didn't want to drag your life there over to here, you'd have made a fresh start here with a new name and avatar (sorry to all those who believe symbols are meaningless). It would've been a gesture. "Actions speak louder than words."

Bob you were banned because you didnt fit in. Thats all. You flew right off the handle in the begining, and still are 4 years later. Your emotions dictate your behavior, so your an open target.

If I did change my name, and avatar people would still know its me. Then everyone would say I'm trying to hide, ect, ect, ect. I cant win either way. Plus I'd rather be honest about myself. I dont run away from my past. I accept what I do, either good, or bad, and move on to the next day. To bad you are unable to move on. Its kind of sad in a way.

And dont tell me to STFU. I've never treated you that way. If you dont want to hear it click ignore.

[TechJunkie]

Hey guys -

I realize we're FAR from perfect on this forum, but overall, it's a pretty decent place, and for the most part seems to be on the minimal side of drama these days.

With that in mind -
how about keeping your LPF drama & crap at LPF or in PM's...

This is the section for this kind of discussion. If it offends you I suggest not reading this part of the forum. Everyone posting here is a member of THIS forum. What we discuss is irreverent as long as we are in the proper section, and not fighting. Which we're not.

I read your other comment in the other thread before you deleted it. There is no trolling on either thread. Just because we are having a heated debate does not mean I'm fabricating posts to cause negative reactions. They have their view, I have mine, and I'm being totally honest on both threads. If I have to read their opinions then they have to read mine. I've ALWAYS admitted when I'm trolling, and I'm telling you right now there is 0 trolling going on. People seem to confuse heated debate as trolling. Trolling is a fabrication, not a disagreement. just because I'm being upfront doesnt mean I'm trolling. Please dont confuse the two. We have enough drama going on.

[TechJunkie]

Sorry for being harsh Stuka. Its really rubbing me the wrong way how people try to tell you what is OK to post, and what is not. Its BS. You can disagree, but dont try to dictate to me. I dont do that.

And there is already a lot of drama going on here in case you missed it. These 2 threads are nothing. If people would stop posting in the other thread it would end, but they are still dictating, like you tried. I'm glad you deleted your post.

I'm unsubscribing from both threads.

[twhite828]

I'm not sure whether stepping in is a good thing or not, but there's definitely a serious information vacuum regarding the month or so leading up to these events. I'm probably going to get raked over the coals but hey, information wants to be free! Bear with me, because this is kind of a long story.

Before I begin, TJ, for record, Ped did NOT leave a neg rep for Jerry. Jacob32123 left a neg rep on an old post, and Ped edited the comment, warning Jacob not to rep an old post.

So. Here goes.

It goes without saying there's been conflict between Jerry and I for something like three years as of last summer. Probably the single biggest source of drama during that time was Peregrine, a free and open source LPM datalogger I built. I built it to provide an alternative to first-party datalogging software and to remove a barrier to entry into the LPM market - namely, software. He did not like this, of course, and threatened LaserBee users with a voided warranty if they used it. During those same three years, I also released OpenLPM. It's a codebase for Arduinos to make it easier for people who want to build an LPM. This, also, was met with resistance by Jerry - though not as much as Peregrine due to fewer people being interested in it. Then, obviously, my other LaserBee related projects like Ellipsis didn't exactly help the situation cool. Basically, Jerry treated my open source work like it was competition and made every effort to stop or otherwise impede it. Unfortunately for him, because I was doing it for the community and for personal enjoyment, his usual tactics never worked because I had no financial reason to stop the projects.

So, with all that said, for a variety of valid reasons on both sides, we did not like each other.

In the middle of July, ARG and I launched the Rubicon LPM. It was based on the Ophir 20C-A-1-Y sensor that's so popular in the hobby circle. It runs an improved version of firmware I wrote several years ago as a third-party upgrade for the Kenometer Pro. The release of the Rubicon marked the first time I'd had any kind of LPM on the market. It also opened up the chapter where the issues we're talking about began. Two weeks after we launched the Rubicon, there was a discussion on Ophir sensors on ebay. It was brought up that they are not necessarily within +/- 3% when they come from the seller. We've seen a number of cases of this; a week ago two LPF members had surplus Ophir sensors verified against calibrated sources. One read 5% low, the other 7% high. The two members had compared them and noticed them off in excess of 10%, but did not know whose was correct. As it turns out, they were both out of spec, but in different directions. It's unknown how widespread the issue is, and there hasn't been a large enough sample verified to see if it's worth worrying about. So, in this thread, it was also mentioned that the sensors bundled with Rubicons are verified and, if necessary, adjusted before being shipped to customers.

That's where the problems kicked off. An argument sparked off between Jerry, ARG, and I regarding the sensors. He asserted that he had never encountered any surplus sensors outside their ratings, and that we were fabricating the possible inaccuracy in order to sell our LPM's (with bundled Ophir sensors). We argued that because we could not verify the origin of the sensors, there was no way to know that all of them would be within spec. Jerry's assertion that he had never encountered any inaccurate surplus sensors may be true, but we knew that we had encountered some sensors that did not match his hypothesis. The biggest issue I took with Jerry's argument was the fact that we made no money on the sensors we bundled with the power meters. A bare LPM was $250, while an LPM with a sensor was $450 (not including shipping). At the time, a known calibrated Ophir sensor was worth about $250. We made less money on LPM's sold with sensors. So the argument that we were lying about sensor accuracy in order to push our products was not only insulting, it was arithmetically ludicrous.

That argument culminated in Jerry receiving a number of neg reps from various members, ARG and myself included. Jerry, of course, returned fire. This is when things really, really took off. I went back through our posting history and found the instances where he had attacked open source projects, browbeaten competition into submission, or just generally been anticompetitive. Those were the old posts that I gave him neg rep for. I think I actually still have that list, for those interested.

Why?

He had had the privilege of running roughshod over people for years, in no small part because of his rep power. Every time he hounded his competition until they left LPF, he got away with it, because no one would stand up to him except the targeted party. Every time he grilled someone who wanted to build an LPM and maybe sell it, he got away with it, because no one would argue or call him out on his behavior. Why? Because no one wanted to get a neg rep from Jerry. Each time he did that, he deserved to get hit with a neg rep, because all he ever did was nip competition in the bud, thereby stifling innovation. Sometimes he would raise valid questions, but other times he would do something like demand to know the coating someone was using on the sensor... meanwhile never being willing to provide any kind of specifications on his own.

During August, he hemorrhaged some 100 rep power, which, in my opinion, is a paltry number when weighed against his behavior. In early September, he posted a thread questioning the accuracy of the Rubicon. He grabbed some graphs off of laser reviews and drew a few hasty conclusions without consulting the people that posted said graphs. He was disproven by several parties with independent tests, but he never returned to defend himself, provide proof, or apologize. In doing that, he proved his only intent was to cast unfounded doubt on the quality of a competing product.

Sure, he may have helped people while he was on LPF. But what about the damage he did?

He used his power (real or imagined, by him or others) and influence to repeatedly dissuade or run off competition. Each time he purged LPF of competition, he damaged the LPM market and beat back innovation for a time, until the next hapless soul tried to start a project. As of last July, his behavior had left the LPM market stuck spinning its wheels since 2010. With the absence of meaningful competition, Jerry never needed to appreciably improve his product line or offer any new features. So he didn't innovate.

My effort on open source projects was intended to undo the damage that he did. I spent innumerable hours getting OpenLPM ready for release and developing Peregrine in an attempt to make it easier to develop a hobby LPM and to make getting into the market seem like a less intimidating and impossible task. All the while, Jerry fought tooth and nail to stop my projects.

I firmly believe the damage he did to the market far outweighs the benefits he brought to the forum - especially in the last year or so. Though I understand disagreement with what transpired.

All of that said, we didn't intend to completely run him out of town. The goal was to send him a very clear message that he was going to get called out on his bullshit anticompetitive tendencies and that it would not fly anymore. Unfortunately, LPF then went from having one monopoly to having a different one. Granted, our philosophy is definitely better than Jerry's, but I'd still love competition. That's why ARG and I are working on that open source LPM hardware project, and why I'm in the process of putting together an open source firmware development kit for the Rubicon. Competition pushes us harder to innovate - and to do it for less money.

Now that he is aware of what he can and can't get away with, I would welcome Jerry back to LPF. If he can compete with comparable pricing and features or downright out-innovate us, so be it - that is his victory to enjoy. LPF thrives on competition. I do not wish to have a monopoly. I will continue doing what I do in hopes that someone new will step up to the plate and hit ARG and I out of the park.

Trevor

[hakzaw1]

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++++++++++

[TechJunkie]

Trevor, I thought I ended it. Now you come on an blow it right back up again.

Its over, Jerry is gone. He is not posting on this thread, neither should you. No one here cares about any of that. I was just having a conversation with Peter, and nothing more.

You got what you wanted. How much more do you need? Are you that insecure you need to write a huge brick on an unrelated forum? Get over yourself already.