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Thread: scanner options?

  1. #51
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    Bill's 30 minute video is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiaM0adidIo
    At the start it describes very clearly the KPPS relation to scan speed. Scanners are physical things, so the physical quantities are specified. Once you know those you can deduce what is possible. Tuning the amps for gain and damping to get correct display at 8° is based on these physical details, not the other way round (If you used a heavier mirror you'd have to tune them again).

    In other words, stating a KPPS value first is putting the cart before the horse. Worse, the comparison is meaningless if you can't verify that the scanner's physical specs are even capable of what is claimed for KPPS. So Bill starts with the raw physics, and works from there.

    At the start of that big video is a very nice description of the link between KPPS and raw scan speed capability. (Best I have seen yet, as it happens). I'll paraphrase it, but in my own way so you can compare this post with what he says. Think of a square. The distance along one side is exactly the reciprocal of the square root of 2 of the distance between diagonally opposite corners. This is useful because the ILDA pattern draws the circle OUTSIDE the square, touching the corners. When you speed up the scan to the point where it touches the INSIDE of the square at each edge, the circle's diameter has shrunk by exactly the reciprocal of the square root of two, which also happens to be the -3dB reduction in original amplitude (scale) which defines the cutoff point of a filter. Scanners have mass, they act as low-pass filters when their inertia resists motion, so this is entirely appropriate. There are TWELVE points drawing that circle, so the frequency at the -3dB point for the 8° scan angle is the KPPS value divided by 12. It's linear, and exact, so 1KHz for 12K scanners, 2.5KHz for 30K scanners, etc.

    Now, the resonant frequency of the scanners will depend on the physical abilities of the scanner, torque etc, first, and on amp tuning (gain, damping), second. I imagine that any scanner tunable to 30K at a wide angle may be tuned to 40K at a smaller angle, but how much smaller, and how good it looks, depends on its torque and heat dissipation and a lot of other physics.

    It may be hard to compare scanners in detail unless their torque, and any resonances, etc, are well measured and known. So the only easy decision to make is: do not trust scanners for which such important physical data is either unknowable, or is widely varying between two supposedly identical scanners. You can maybe trust them up to a point, but Bill's already said several times recently that it can be a lottery regarding lifetime, large signal performance (ability to make large jumps in a well-controlled manner), etc.

    That's a rough guide from me. This is new to me too, a lot of it anyway. But that's partly why I did it. It IS fairly easy to grasp so long as you put the peices together in the right order. Don't start with a declaration of KPPS because it's the wrong end of the stick. The only reason that 30K is often quoted first is because people chose it and stuck with it as a standard, And the only reason they did that was to make sure a show made for one 30K scanner looks right on another 30K scanner. And given that doubling to 60K is equivalent to doubling frequency, that is just one octave, not as dramatic is it seems because to go one more you'd have to double again, four times the original frequency. Not linear! In other words, 40K is not one third of the way between 30K and 60K! It's less, in all practical considerations. Trying to make a 30K scanner design do 40K costs more than it gains, because a 30K scanner is built with an entire set of physical qualities aimed at exactly that. To make a real 40K scanner still isn't worth the hassle of going back to the drawing board, and a derivative of an old CT6800 30K scanner won't do it right even if the copy was exact.

    This probably isn't the neat short answer you wanted, but you'll gain more by looking at this stuff till your expectations change. Make sure you get that bit about the circle, the 0.707 (70%, -3dB) in the ILDA pattern because it's neat, easy, and if you can base the change in your thinking on that bit the rest will probably change more easily.

    If anyone who knows this stuff well spots a flaw in what I said, feel free to spell it out because I'm trying not to misguide either myself or anyone else.
    Last edited by The_Doctor; 01-12-2014 at 14:42.

  2. #52
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    Something I thought of since the previous post...
    If you have any 30K scanner, tuned properly, displaying the ILDA pattern so its circle sits neatly inside the square at 8° scan angle, you could start by reducing the scan angle to protect the scanners before going further! Then you can increase the scan speed by exactly 1.333 times to get a 40K scan rate. Then cautiously increase the scan angle until the circle sits neatly in the square, and see how much scan angle you're getting. It may not be a lot, but it could be an easy test because you don't need to retune the scanner amps. I imagine that the better the scanner, the closer you'll get to your original 8°, but don't expect too much, and more importantly, don't expect it to be clean and sharp because any resonances and lack of stiffness in shaft, magnet or mirror might make a pig's ear of the doings. If this is the case, you already know that tuning those scanners up faster isn't going to be worth a damn.

    Again, if I have failed to grasp something that should have been obvious, please help me by pointing it out.

  3. #53
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    Out of curiosity, when you say the driver saturates, do you mean the output IC clips at the rails or is this related to the PID loop saturating?
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnar View Post
    Out of curiosity, when you say the driver saturates, do you mean the output IC clips at the rails or is this related to the PID loop saturating?
    I asked that too (post following Bill's original reference). I started by thinking it meant clipping but it's not. For a start, that would be so easy to eliminate, but given that large signal response is ballistic response, the thrown motion will have to be slowed by reversing current to prevent it dramatically exceeding the set point. I don't know enough about PID loop saturation to go further but I'm certain that your suggestion of this is the right one.

  5. #55
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    Yeah, basically a combination of P (proportional error) and D (derivative of the error) could produce PID saturation. I (integral) windup too if the scanners are slow achieving the positional setpoint.
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnar View Post
    Out of curiosity, when you say the driver saturates, do you mean the output IC clips at the rails or is this related to the PID loop saturating?
    The coil is fed by a voltage coming from the power amplifier. The voltage develops a coil current as a result of the resistance of the coil and inductance. Torque produced by the motor is proportional to the current. (Voltage does not matter and higher voltage only helps to overcome the inductance, perhaps giving you the torque faster.)

    When *most* servo guys talk about saturation, they talk about the saturation from a VOLTAGE standpoint -- yes, clipping to the rails. But with high inductance (and the 100 microhenry coil of a scanner can actually start to look like "high inductance"), even after the amplifier saturates (from a voltage standpoint) current continues to rise, up to a current limit set by the overall circuit.

    So, if you poke around on Google and type phrases like "Servo power amp saturation", you'll see that this is something to be avoided. With the servo amps in lightshow, some circuitry is added to actually allow the power amplifier to saturate from a voltage standpoint while allowing current to rise to a final value. Once current stops rising, then it's certainly considered to be saturated.

    For a simple PD (and especially PID) servo, once the output amplifier saturates, you technically "lose control" because the thing that was giving you control in the first place is voltage headroom. That's why saturation is deemed a bad thing. In PID servos, additional circuitry is needed such as anti-windup circuitry to keep from driving the power amp even further into saturation (as could typically happen with an integrator in the loop).

    So if you see a situation where you put a square wave into the scanner amp and it looks fine at small angles, but overshoots at large angles, this is because the power amplifier has saturated at the larger angles, and does not offer control (i.e. an ability to present enough voltage to decelerate the scanner when needed).

    That's the long answer...

    Bill

  7. #57
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    Hi guys,

    Well I said I would make a video to try to explain the differences in scanners, benefits of our Compact 506, angular loss with operating at 40K etc. and I did just that tonight. Here you can see a video that we made where we run our scanners side by side with DT40s. I'll leave it to all of you to observe the differences and pick the winner
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iWjpz2YEO0

    Bill

  8. #58
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    Thanks for posting this, I am sold. I have a set of DT40s that I like a lot and was planning on getting another set for my next build, but now I want the 506s. Can't wait for the "credit card" amp to become available too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
    Hi guys,

    Well I said I would make a video to try to explain the differences in scanners, benefits of our Compact 506, angular loss with operating at 40K etc. and I did just that tonight. Here you can see a video that we made where we run our scanners side by side with DT40s. I'll leave it to all of you to observe the differences and pick the winner
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iWjpz2YEO0

    Bill

  9. #59
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    Impressive video, Bill. The scanners were well matched in the Creation test as far as visual performance goes though I did see flaring on the "stars" in the DT40 image toward the beginning. Perhaps this is another side-by-side that you can show us as well. One thing that I have always noticed on the PT scanners and also on my DT40s is; when projecting dots or fans of beams, as the scan angle gets larger, the outermost points start to flare. My guess would be from ringing. I noticed that the 506's did not do this flaring which, to me, shows great stability.

    I am impressed with the temperature of the scanner block on the 506s after being driven so hard. DT40s, running at high temperatures and also using conventional bearings seems like a failure would be immanent vs the 506s.

    As for me, I am sold. Thanks for the test, Bill!
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  10. #60
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    Very informative [and impressive] video! Thank you for taking the time to make it!

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