Question for Fog / Haze-Juice Chemists...

[mixedgas]

Find some one/some rental lab with a gas chromatograph.

The PLer who would know is in jail for A long time for deliberately ramming a Florida State Patrol cruiser while high on recreational pharmaceuticals.

He used to buy 55 gallon drums of pre-mixed fluid. He'd buy from two different mixers and blend what he wanted. I cant even remember his name.

that said,

I once got several jugs of fog fluid that were missing the water component at a local store chain. It seems every theatre tech and laserist within the state were driving from store to store as each store got a half pallet of undiluted gallons.

This tells me it's bought pre-mixed and diluted and re-labeled to order.

Changing how much water changes mixed with the above pure mix changes the density slightly and greatly affects the "loft" coming out of the nozzle.

Steve

[Laser Wizardry]

" 15 characters"

[dsli_jon]

...I pay ~£40 per gallon over here for a single gallon, so... edit: just did some sums, its....Thats quite a lot better than you're getting isn't it?

Indeed, thanks for the links / homework.. I hadn't really thought about looking at 'xtreme-importing'.. but.. if the OEM-distro, here, is going to be so 'obtuse' as to be totally-unwilling to budge on $50+ tax for 2L's, even buying a couple Gal-quantities, well.. Afraid he's gonna have to face losing the biz to 'Mr Thomann'.. Cheers for the info / thoughts..

Hey K -

...the look solutions juice, is, ...simply the correct glycol to water ratio. ....at least one of them ...was told the correct ratio direct from the manufacturer

Interesting.. So, that does-lend weight to extrapolating that the only probable real-difference (...and perhaps only, at-least within the 'same brands', ie: Look Fog / Haze: Likely more 'interchangeable', than Look's OEM fluid, and 'Froggy's generic', etc.. ) is that 'gly-to-water' ratio, vs it being a lot of other 'mystery chemicals' ..

..Which makes sense with the physical-observations: 'Fog' fluid (in general..) seems more viscous, with the formula 'weighted' towards more / the heavier-glycols (..which results in the 'denser' fog..), and the 'Haze' fluids, are 'wateriER', allowing for quicker 'turn-over' / dispersion, on the constant-flow basis thru the heater.. Therefore, it might be 'OK' to 'use a "fog" fluid in a hazer - as long as - the glycol-mix / quality is at least as 'good' a-grade as the 'OEM haze'...

...but, in the end, certainly if a more 'down to earth' price for OEM-fluid can be found, then it probably makes-most sense.. even if-not cents. Sorry, that was bad..

Thanks for all the input, Guys..

Karl, PS - This should bring you a smile... ...Remember the 'Fail Co.' in this thread? http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...310#post238310 ..well, of course, after being 'spam-bombed' by them - only to go to their 'site' and see THAT sh - Yes, I 'filed a complaint', and, figured that'd be the last I heard of it (..as, sadly, we've experienced so-much in the past, when CDRH was 'underwater'..) Well, last-week, I see that I've missed a call from a # in MD.. and there's a vm, so go to check it.. And, whattya know, it's our ol' pal Woody... want's me to call him back / to 'chat'.. heh..

..I finally catch up with him on the following Tues, and, yup - He's finally getting to this 'trade complaint', he got from that online form... And he asks 'ok, so remind me again what this was about?'.. So, I figure, 'heh, a video speaks a 1000-words' and re-direct him to the site / gallery page where that brazen 'demo' is.. And he's all.. "Oooh, ya, ya... dis is a problem, ya..' So, we talk further, and 3P!C Failzors is now *squarely* on the radar, and he said '..of course, I cannot tell you 'what action' we will take, but that, 'Yes, we will be taking action', (.and then, Lol, he proceeds to tell me what they're gonna do.. '...they will get a warning letter', and (...as he's perusing other links, there, I am guessing, thru the rambled-utterances...) 'all of this (the site..) needs to come down and.. oh my, ...'80 Watt lasers? Yes, yes, we will be talking to them right away... ' ...Heh. That's just fine, let the FDA 'think' they actually have the arsenal they boast. 'Moar to Lurve'..

..Now, I'm (sincerely) not 'out for blood', I'm more than happy to see them 'get straight', but gol dangit, they wanna put it out there that they're "Global Laser Experts" (Pffffffuahahahaha, ROFLMAO, LolZ..), and yep - be competition for Co's that are even trying to 'keep to the high-road', well... Yer gonna at *least* get on a level-playing field, with everybody else, and ya sure as hells-bells ain't gonna be doing it W/O (100% confirmed, btw..) a Variance, no State Registration.. and doing *totally* unsafe, besides illegal, werk...

...Sorry, but, when it comes to public-safety / protecting our industry from more-Regs, *especially*, seeing what this moron has been doing to people's poor-eyeballs from, what, 30' away, tops???.. >_< ..'Education trumps amnesty', and sometimes, that 'education' needs to be a titanium Clu-x-4.. We can only-hope..


Hope that brightens yer day a little..
j

[dnar]

It's the 11 secret herbs and spices that makes all the difference!

[The_Doctor]

It's the 11 secret herbs and spices that makes all the difference!

Yep. Spice, and the thumping great worm they put in the bottom of the bottle.

[dnar]

I am no expert or chemist, but I have always looked at it this way.

Glycerin has a boiling point of 290c. Water is 100c.

The weaker the fluid mix, the lower the boiling point, the finer and more complete the vapour produced, the longer it hangs in the air.

AFIAC these are the only active ingredients. Some fluids have food coloring added, sometime fragrances also.

I believe that when manufacturers recommend only using their fluids they are concerned with the correct boiling point for the heater temperature of their machine.

I have found that thinner mixes pull heat from the heater block faster.

[The_Doctor]

Water has a very high specific heat capacity, so thin mixes will do that. Btw, glycol, not glycerine. (I read that glycerine IS a glycol, but better glycols (triethylene) have been used instead of glycerine). I don't know what the different densities are for these new glycols, but it seems likely that weighing a volume of known good fluid, then weighing a volume of distilled water at same temperature should give a ratio that allows deduction of the mix ratio. Then test the viscosity, oiliness, by wiping between finger and thumb. So long as you 'calibrate' this extremely crude test, it might be effective as part of a series of simple tests to gauge accuracy of mix (which can include a boiling point test, and another for specific heat capacity). I'd start by looking up material properties for triethylene glycol and water unless I had proof that some other glycol was used.

EDIT:
Something I've noticed with a stored 5 litre flask of glycol mix (bought from Maplin) is that after a few years holding about 2/3 of its original volume, the high density polyethylene flask material contracts around the inner volume, as the same material does if it holds white spirit and some other aromatic hydrocarbon solvents. As the glycol mix is very hygroscopic it may be absorbing water vapour that got in on humid days, but it's not likely. And if there were a leak big enough for gas it wouldn't shrink anyway, it would just get very slowly more dilute. Whatever's going on it does degrade very slightly into something that can permeate out through the flask wall. Still works very well though.

[dsli_jon]

It's the 11 secret herbs and spices...

Kentucky Fogged Chicken?

I am no expert or chemist, but.... I believe that when manufacturers recommend only using their fluids they are concerned with the correct boiling point for the heater temperature of their machine.

Interesting-perspective, and, well.. I'm sure the 'laywers quite-agree as-well'.. ..You know - this is the 'CYA-age', like never-before... but, anyhoo.. interesting points..

I do-wonder (..and shall now go and do some homewerk.. ) if we can find out the 'molecular mass' of the typical glycols-set used vs water.. which is 'heavier'? ..therefore, depending on 'particle-size' / proportion of each, which 'mix-balance' would be, umm, 'hangier'..

..Don't know why this at all matters any more than a flying-fart, but.. more interesting to discuss than watching this 'render-progress-bar'.. +_+

EDIT: heh, I guess 'Doc' and I were typing at the same time.. ..'Inquiring minds wanna know!' ..Lol..

cheers..
j

[The_Doctor]

'Inquiring minds wanna know!' ..Lol..

Such are Saturday nights that I read that as 'liquoring minds! Not that this hellish liquor is one to drink, worm or no worm.

[dsli_jon]

..Not that this hellish liquor is one to drink...

..OMG, You're *drinking* the Haze-juice??!! SOPT!!

cheers...
j