Appalled... Where is the Safety for the audience ?

[dsli_jon]

...Paper copies of any certification as proof of entitlement are almost worthless...counterfeiting..is easy.

..and Manufacturers / Distributors don't have telephones to simply ring-up the 'issuing agency'? Are we living in the 19th century or something?

If Manuf's were, indeed, to *require* proof of at least a basic-level of safety-awareness / education - as there is in-place for so many other things that people are (..for the most-part..) willing to 'subject themselves to'... our autos, forklift-ops, riggers, welders, etc, etc.. That 'putting responsability to 'forward-educate' before profit' could help.. not 'cure', of course, as again, there will *always* be the perma-idiots... but, ie: when there is little to zero education from the Manufacturer, thru the distributors, down to the venue-owners and end-Ops, etc, well.. there's little hope to elevate the ignorant..

..But if, as kecked-suggests, like high-power rockets, etc - to even buy - you simply had to pass-thru some *basic* safety awareness / education / prove-it, well.. that could help, since it's far more likely that most system-owners are just 'ignorant' of the dangers, vs being diabolical eyeball burners, the world over.. Sure, some "show companies" should know-better, but.. I'd bet that it's far-more often a case of an ignorant venue / club-owner / dj / etc..

..blah blah blah, ok I'll shut up now..
j

[mccarrot]

Kecked. I can tell you we tryed for 5 years now to get thu to the government here in Denmark. And all the people we have talked with just wash there hands and saying it's the other department and we only goes in circles... No one in the government will take a responsibility to make some laws there are saying min. on class 3 and 4 need a license. After that there came Laws on the fireworks....
Like we have on fireworks here, after the acident in 2004 (see video on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4iNOguCNFQ)

But it like it always is. There must be a lot of people great harm before the government do something about it. And the problem is of course not diminished over the years with lots of cheap china junk products.
Or it needs to come on tv, that it's a problem, Then the politician can gets some votes... and do something about it. Ignoring... (and no i don't like to go to politics and do something about it :-) .-) )
So i think it's just a matter of time before we see the first eyes damage on somebody's audience. Because people don't handle the lasers with the causion and respect there there always is needed, when we are talking about laser...

In the Netherlands we also had a firworks explosion from fireworks used for popconcerts!
A complet neigbourhood wiped from the map, 2000 builings damaged or destroyed, many casualties.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cQEPYDl4ouU

After this event came the regulations.

In europe things first needs to go bad before it gets regulated. Unfortunatly with the high power lasers at low cost lately its just a matter of time for things to go bad.

[White-Light]

In the Netherlands we also had a firworks explosion from fireworks used for popconcerts!
A complet neigbourhood wiped from the map, 2000 builings damaged or destroyed, many casualties.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cQEPYDl4ouU

After this event came the regulations.

In europe things first needs to go bad before it gets regulated.

Not all of Europe, the UK has had tight storage regulations for many years - factories not allowed in residential areas, shops only allowed to keep a small amount of stock on site in sealed metal containers with the rest stored off site in sealed metal containers (of limited size) or remote underground explosives bunkers for larger amounts.

On lasers generally, the UK also has tight public performance regulations although it is possible to flout them easily.

However, the whole thing with laser regulation is several fold:

1. Imports of pointers aren't controlled eg Class I is the highest allowed to be imported into the UK, yet many people are able to import, sell or possess Class 4 (not having a go at responsible pointer users here), but there are many irresponsible kids + there are "laser toys" as we've seen in the other thread, that may have unknown or inaccurate powers, because imports go unchecked.

2. Current EU safety Regulations, far from keeping people safe, actually encourage law breaking because 10mw cm 2 is so dim as to give a poor display (especially when the repeat rate is taken into account and reduces the limit further). The answer here is the ILDA 10x MPE level and no repeat rate reduction if using "ordinary cues" given that there's 20+ years of evidence behind it from mainland Europe of people being exposed to hundreds of MPE, but the authorities won't listen. There should at least be a controlled trial and scientific study using people not otherwise exposed to lasers, and with an introduction if successful, but no, nothing.

Instead there are alleged recent attempts to lower the limit further in case people trip or tip over from being dazzled by 1mw of power! All that such a move will ever do is encourage clubs that currently obey the regulations to discard them entirely.

Pangolin's safety lens system also goes a long way here to helping, but a 10MPE limit is still needed to ensure that lasers have the wow factor and the brightness of other lighting when outside the direct axis of the beam.

3. So far as projectors are concerned, there's very little danger to the public from projectors held at home as very few people own them and they're not that easily portable (not least of which because of the power supply requirement for outdoor use which means running round with them is impracticable). The real danger comes from professional displays and here its the regulations again at fault. There are insufficient checks in some countries and the legal display levels are too low encouraging law breaking.

4. Banning audience scanning won't work either as we've seen from the US, audiences want this and many clubs will simply flout any ban as many people won't go to events without it, or will prefer illegal events instead.

The only reason I see for calling for licensing for ownership is because some display companies don't like the fact that others are now getting in on the act due to the low projector cost. What's really needed is proper event licensing and realistic legal exposure limits, to ensure that those using projectors at public events are properly safety qualified and insured, and are able to put on a wow factor display without having to resort to illegal levels of power.

That would have exactly the same result of getting the cowboys out of the market.

It's far better to have a higher legal power limit that's reduces the safety margin slightly but has 20 years+ of safety research behind it, than to have the currently low legal limit and have people flouting it by running huge powers of unknown effect to try to get the brightness the audience want.

[norty303]

Pangolin's safety lens system also goes a long way here to helping, but a 10MPE limit is still needed to ensure that lasers have the wow factor and the brightness of other lighting when outside the direct axis of the beam.

A lens and fast scanfail are able to provide totally adequately bright beams at or below MPE.

It's far better to have a higher legal power limit that's reduces the safety margin slightly but has 20 years+ of safety research behind it, than to have the currently low legal limit and have people flouting it by running huge powers of unknown effect to try to get the brightness the audience want.

They will flout 10xMPE just the same.

[Galvonaut]

Not all of Europe, the UK has had tight storage regulations for many years

We did have a situation in 1605 involving large amounts of gun powder stored in one place though - I think UK parliament may have been a little paranoid after that

Keith

[norty303]

We did have a situation in 1605 involving large amounts of gun powder stored in one place though - I think UK parliament may have been a little paranoid after that

Didn't stop 2 deaths and multiple injuries in the Ringmer incident of 2006 though either