LOBO gun, has Brad ordered one :)

[Stiffler]

Hi Steve,

Thanks again for the history lesson, it is always educational & appreciated.

1. Laser safety will always rely on a trained operator following procedures. No combination of MPE Meters, Inclinometers, Scanfail, or Cameras with AI is going to replace a human operator.

While I agree that there is no replacement for human oversight, any of the aforementioned electronic systems would have disabled the LOBO gun before it went into the crowd, without the need for human intervention; humans are fallible. The fact that this incident happened in the presence of the most professional people in the laser industry, and probably at the hands of an operator of the same professional level, is a pretty good indication that a "trained operator" is not a suitable replacement for installed safety systems (and vice versa).

I have only been involved in the technical side of lasers for a couple of years, but I have made some observations, most of them of situations that I find frustrating at best:

1.) Most people have no idea that there are rules governing lasers, this included me up until a couple years ago.
2.) Anyone with $100 can purchase a laser, legal or not.
3.) Most people never make the connection that if a tiny laser beam can burn holes through black tape & pop balloons, it can do the same to their retina.
4.) While purchasing a product from X-Laser might make an individual 'legal', it certainly does not guarantee that they will use the laser in a safe manner.
5.) Most promoters/club owners won't take NO for an answer, and will call around until they get a YES, which is normally "yes, it's ok to crowd scan & I would be happy to do that".
6.) THERE ARE NO LASER POLICE. Sure, some where there is a guy tasked with handing out citations to people breaking the rules, but I'm pretty sure the proliferation of lasers is far outpacing the growth of his staff. I can name several nightclubs that are illegally crowd scanning (in at least one case with multi-watt Laserworld projectors), and in virtually every case they have no idea that they are breaking the law, or doing something that is dangerous.

I also find it odd that I can legally purchase enough guns & ammo to take over a small country, but if I want to build myself a 'legal' laser projector it is MUCH harder (and the information to do so is elusive).

Pandora's box was opened the first time a Casio projector was harvested, there is no closing it. Laser safety has to be easy, and less esoteric than it currently is.

[norty303]

Whilst I agree with most of what you say, I think that somewhere there needs to be an 'incentive' for people to 'do' laser safety.
If that incentive is that they have to jump through some hoops, or suffer penalties then that is what it will take.
I simply think we canot rely on people's conscience to 'do the right thing' when the evidence suggests that where money is concerned, people will not do the right thing.

[planters]

I really appreciate the feedback from some very knowledgeable people. Mr Murphy's statement helps somewhat; better late than never. It is also reveiling to see the man behind the curtin. Just as I noted that this new moving head is nothing more than a big quad module, LOBO sounds like any other laser show company, but with a big budget.

[The_Doctor]

Before sleep, I conceded Steve's point that integration of MPE detection into a projector was good. After sleep, I think there is also no way to avoid the need for a 'mark 2 human eyeball' that anyone can wave at a beam show. No matter how difficult it may be, it must be done.

Right now there are club owners who just want to have the show operator say 'yes, we can do crowd scans', like Stiffler said, but that can change mighty fast. A few big scares with some fire behind the smoke is all it takes to make people scared to go to a laser show, and many club owners will not trust the show operator or his word that his projector is special, no matter how many documents he waves around.

When that day comes (and it will), club owners will want that mark 2 human eyeball. It doesn't have to be very accurate. It just needs to be good enough to indicate whether there is something blatantly wrong about the show operator's claims. A cheap domestic line tester with a neon lamp won't tell you much about the mains voltage but it still 'knows' the difference between the relatively safe 70V ringer voltage in a phone line, and the 110V or more in a mains cable. It's desperately crude but it still has a useful threshold for indicating safety even with a minimum error greater than 30%.

Threshold detection is a common task in electronic sensing, and often a lot easier to do than precise metering. In many situations it needs only to be good enough to indicate a need for closer inspection.

Silicon photocells are wavelength specific, and do not give good reading if more than one wavelength is present, so it's worth looking (wildly if necessary) for other ideas too. One occurred to me on waking today. People have been posting threads about beams hitting curtains and making sound. A thinly stretched black material in a chamber with an electret microphone? Second chamber as control, with second mic to cancel the first to reduce ambient and handling noise? It may turn out worthless, but there's a good opportunity for a bit of science there to try to find out. If it works it should respond to the whole beam strength, not be wavelength dependent, and it could be fast enough to give an idea of the energy in the pulse before the next one hits.

If old ideas won't get us there, it's worth looking around for anything that might.

[dsli_jon]

Couple quick comments, whilst I am waiting for a multi-Gb upload..

First (..and, Eric, not 'picking on you', just using your post as a 'springboard'.. nothing 'personal'..

....it's going to be really hard for me to take any ILDA recommendations seriously when your own shows aren't safe; If you are leading by example, you just failed.

..I think the calls to 'burn ILDA to the ground', earlier-here are over-reacting, for several reasons.. a), the International Laser Display ASSOCIATION, is-just that.. We really cannot 'personify' it, and blame 'it' for every bad-call, accident, or even colossal *-up (..like this one at the Conference.. ) - that's like saying 'Volvo SUCKS because I know someone who was killed by-one..' etc - I know, 'hyperbole', but, point is. 'ILDA', as a whole, is not the 'sum-total of a few bad-apples here and there, within'.. ILDA, as a whole, does-do much good, has-achieved victories for laser-freedoms / makes great-efforts to champion safety - for us ALL - even those Internationally, whilst many of the efforts are, indeed, 'US-centric'..

..ie: When they meet with lawmakers (..or those that influence them..) and make us aware of looming industry / personal laser-freedoms-damaging 'blanket-legislation', so we can 'make our voice heard' (ie: recent-example of informing members of a push for adoption of an outdated IEC-standard harmonization, and where on Regulations.gov we could go to 'post comments', etc..) and those 'make a difference', by curbing blanket-laws, or, at least 'getting them to THINK' / regroup / reconsider, etc - That can help, internationally... How?

..Well, if other countries, for example, when looking to, say, institute 'safe-zone standards' for airspace, and they can 'look to the FAA', here in the US for 'how we do it', well.. If those 'FAA-standards' are *balanced* by input from Us - the show-professionals, thru ILDA-reps at a meeting - well, then, that reasonableness can help at-least 'temper' other-lawmakers 'trigger-pens' / encourage them to THINK, first.. YES, of course, when lawmakers see such horrific *-ups, like Lobo's, here, sure, that 'helps no-one'..

..But, I'll bet my sweet-bippy, 'ILDA' will do everything possible to help that 'attending consultant', who witnessed this major-fail, to appreciate this was 'NOT the norm', as I am quite confident in saying it's not for Lobo.. Yeah, they really blew it, on this one - should never have been a *chance* for it to all come-down to 'Operator-fidelity' or a 'sinking footing' - they should have TESTED the full firing-path - *again* - w/ 5mW or something, right-before firing the 100W beast out into any-open space where there were people, period. MAJOR fail, and, imo, they DO 'owe' the entire ILDA-community a public-apology / explanation of 'how this will never happen again' / what they (and we all..) can learn etc.. But I don't see that they are, now, 'blanket-invalidated', etc..

..And, I don't think we can cry out for the 'pitchfork and torch brigade' against ILDA as an Organization, nor it's 'leadership'; Nor say 'ILDA is worthless' / mantras are invalid, etc, just like we can't say 'all Volvo's are unsafe suck-machines' cause some people do-die in them, etc..

b) This was LOBOs actual-failure, not ILDAs. ILDA is not the 'Laser-Daddy' / Police, etc, so.. again, is not fairly 'blamed'.. if ANYthing, it points to (..besides the Op, for not using the E-Stop.. >_< ..Moving-heads + hi-power lasers being FAIL, and just a recipe for disaster... Also, as-to the other 'sins' mentioned ('hi-power pointers being used to burn-* ??!! Srsly?) I'd bet those involved were smashed, which is another FAIL - DON'T DRINK or DRUG and LASE!! STUPID!!! ..but, again, don't see ILDA, as a whole, deserving to be pitched into the firey-furnace for this..

..Second, as-to Steve's great comments, what we have is the pure and simple result of GREED. Unscrupulous-Manufacturers that IGNORE the basic-wisdom of EDUCATION BEFORE SALES - doing *something* to-ensure who you are selling TO, has even 1/2 a clue - Like the CDRH's 'Laser Notice 51's foundational-rationale':

[In requiring that Manufacturers, Distributors / Dealers, AND End-users *have* Variances (meaning, at *least* they would, as a result of going thru that 'process', be aware of the Regs / their 'best-practices', inherent, etc..) BEFORE Sales take-place..]

.."The intent of this condition is to ensure that only individuals or firms who are aware of laser light show radiation safety and protection practices and regulatory requirements acquire laser light show projectors. ...Dealers and distributors of laser light show projectors must have approved laser light show variances to purchase equipment from projector manufacturers. This requirement ensures that awareness of laser light show radiation safety and protection practices and regulatory requirements are transferred from one variance holder to the next...

..essentially: 'Teach Your Offspring'.. (..meaning: Sellers, 'EDUCATE your Dealers / Distributors, etc, SO THAT, they, in-turn, will EDUCATE the End-user, *and* DON'T SELL TO THEM, UNTIL you KNOW THIS IS BEING DONE..) ...Really, it's very-simple, and brilliant! ..But, we obviously know why this is 'fail' - OEMs that don't CARE, blinded by greed, won't bother with this.. So, to that end, just DON'T SUPPORT THOSE OEMS BY BUYING UNSAFE CRAP... And, TRY to Educate others.. That's all we can 'do',.. but.. it's something...

OK, I'll shut up now..
.02
j

[DanG]

As I have been quite otherwise engaged it has been a while since I have been on PL but wanted to read the thread after Patrick alerted the ILDA board to the discussion. To be clear, I am posting here just as myself, not as a representative of ILDA and thus my opinions are my own.

I do believe that I was the only member of the board not in attendance at the conference so as the outsider on this issue, I would like to say that accidents happen. If they didn't, the insurance industry would not exist.

Lobo made a mistake, a potentially serious one, but it is inappropriate to take once incident and generalize that to the entire company, association or industry.

If Lobo had not taken immediate and complete responsibility the situation at the conference would have been much different. If Lobo had not immediately taken steps to correct the problem on both a procedural AND hardware level, the situation would be much different now. If this incident was part of a series of incidents that demonstrated a disregard for safety and/or ILDA's code of ethics, the situation would be much different. James' point about the timing is well taken but folks, sometimes things don't go as they should and the best that professionals can do is resolve to learn, do better and move forward with humility and purpose. Lobo has done this, and I personally support their efforts.

X-Laser has made mistakes. Those who were on the ILDA list may recall a protracted discussion about a guy who reported being scanned 'hard' by an X-Laser product at a trade show. Even though he could not say which fixture scanned him, what the color of the laser was, etc. and referred to DG effects that we were not producing at the time, X-Laser launched a full investigation and determined that it was possible that he may have received a sub-MPE accidental exposure from a fixture which had a slipping focus problem due to improper installation by union riggers. Even though we were not sure that it was actually our product, and even if it was the exposure was measured to be sub-MPE, we took responsibility after much vitriol was hurled at us. We learned, grew and moved on. And, ILDA supported our efforts to do so not because I sit on the board, but because part of the purpose of the association is to support its members, in good times and in bad. We will educate, we will chastise, we will address ethical complaints, etc. but at the end of the day, we will support and stand by companies seeking to do right and be better.

A mistake was made on a fairly high profile stage, but Lobo is doing better and that is all we can ask. Any talk of a coverup is utter nonsense as Patrick's post demonstrated.

I recently wrote a position paper on a totally unrelated issue and I have copied a small passage here for reference as it seems quite relevant and best demonstrates my feelings on this particular subject:

"We are a community of sinners, and while our transgressions are many, varied, and frequently compounded by other transgressions, I think that there is a communal willingness to forgive, forget, educate and grow when the opportunity presents itself.

Allegiances shift, people unlawfully crowd scan, specs are fudged, people jockey for position and we all grimace when someone does something spectacularly stupid. We recognize that some of this is the nature of business, some of it is the absentmindedness of artists, some of it is accidental, some of it is happenstance and some of it is even intentional. We are all guilty of something, probably a number of somethings, and in recognizing that I think that most people give everyone else some amount of latitude. We accept the “standard error” inherent in any complex system. We move on. "

Personally, I am quite sure that Lobo learned a good lesson, no one was injured, and I think it is probably time to move on.

Just my .02.

[The_Doctor]

I think the last couple of posts might be confusing responsibility and blame. I think blame is useless so long as things get fixed. Like I said, shit happens, it just gets noticed a lot more if it's something big.

To me the question is what 'moving on' means, given that safety measures are generally lagging well behind the ease of getting powerful lasers of small size into small clubs, etc... So I'm trying to focus on specific ideas that might help deal with that. (And taking advantage of the fact that some very influential people are looking at this thread now, and might secretly welcome any thought towards something practical that might be done).

I've thought a bit more on that laser and sound thing. People were saying in a couple of threads that 2 or 3 watts at 10 metres or more in a scan wide enough for display, were making buzzing sounds, and that even 300mW will do it if focussed into a cut into acrylic, etc. A couple of posts back I mentioned pairing two electret microphones to cancel ambient and handling noise in a small portable device. If a thin black film of material can be found that produces sound reliably, and withstands strong beams, its small mass will extend the duration of the event, and a very short pulse at high strength will make a sharp snap, and a slow one at lower strength can make a sound that is longer, and with harmonics distributed in lower frequencies. Filtering, spectrum analysis, are common in sound engineering. If a few specific components of the sounds in frequency domain are found to correlate well with over-MPE pulses of various kinds, then deliberate over-MPE pulses can be produced, and the sounds used to 'calibrate' software to determine whether new sources are likely to be over MPE. Looking at a few quantities in the signature will likely get better results than trying to look at only the power and time. This method effectively gives a two-dimensional view of the result of a laser pulse, in realtime. As far as I know, no previous laser meter has this ability, they've all been time based, or limited to instantanous power sampling, or logging of continued exposure at best. Converting to sound lets people use a large amount of existing complex analysis methods.

Retinas in eyes have mass, they react more slowly that the initial causing event, so I see no reason for the sensor to be ruled out because it also has this behaviour. An energy sensor would lag behind the input anyway.

This task might be difficult, but I think a lot more complex tasks are being done in biometrics, which are apparently found as standard in Thinkpad computers, (an observation I base on a comment by Norty recently about some of the newer laptop computers). Equally, it may be easier to get some correlation between sound signatures and over-MPE pulses of laser light arriving through a windowed 7mm aperture onto a stretched black ribbon close to and in front of one of two closely set electret microphones. I doubt that there has been enough experimentation done to rule it in or out yet.

[Lasermad]

The timing of these incidents is not good, as we are in the process of reviewing UK laser show safety guidance.

James

Phew ! you don't paint a pretty picture there , if the professionals cant act professional , whats the chances once these things hit the second hand market or competitors bring out cheaper versions etc

BTW any likely changes , introduction of laser pen legislation here in UK ?

paul

[norty303]

Yeah, I'm curious what steps ILDA are taking to reassure the Public Health representative that what they observed was not typical and that as a laserist I will not have my activities adversely affected by actions observed outside of this country and at a conference bearing the ILDA name

[White-Light]

Going back to the easy MPE measurement points raised above...

In my opinion, the industry regulators (governments not ILDA) are their own worst enemies when it comes to making simple MPE measurement cheap and easy.

Two things that stand out are:

1. Pulse Width Measurement Requirement

2. Aversion Response Allowance - for beam shows without a fast scan fail at / or below 1x MPE (above 1 x MPE it rapidly becomes important)

Without the above, measurement is cheap and easy with a compliant sensor (7mm square (7x7) or equivalent round aperture, minimum 1mw sensitivity, broad spectrum response).

I've not discussed in more detail to avoid flaming.