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Thread: LOBO gun, has Brad ordered one :)

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stiffler View Post
    Lastly, I would rather be intentionally scanned by an illegal laser show where the operator is a least attempting to be safe, than be accidentally scanned by a 100 watt laser operated by 'professionals'.

    Eric
    I agree, but it was a good account from Patrick Murphy too. It's just that 'shit happens' is a real defense at times, but it's harder to swallow if it involves a Shuttle disaster instead of a dropped egg. So the thing is a question of proportion, feedback, and control. That's the only way to get events on dramatically different scales to be in any practical way equivalent. And then there is safety, and perception of safety, so while my own suggestion of a million MPE meters flooding the industry at low prices is disproportionate, at some point it probably has to happen, and if big events like these do not help bring that about, then there is a problem because small ones obviously won't do it.

    James Stewart said that an adviser to UK government was present, and this is the big risk, that one event like this may cause a government to legislate, having one of its own advisers witnessing an event that indicates a lack of adequate self-regulation in a hazardous industry.

    So the question is: what is the biggest acheivable change in self regulation? The answer is likely better, cheaper scanfail devices, and cheap MPE meters in the hands of show operators and club owners.

    A second question is: how much longer can this be kicked into the long grass? If a government adviser gets wind of further errors at a time when government is looking at changes in regulations, or legislation, they won't wait. People say such regulation is now inevitable as a result of the vast numbers of cheap and powerful diodes. Logically it must follow that regulation of the use of these diodes in a show industry demands metering, put in the hands of everyone involved, just as energy supply industry makes its own arrangements to put meters in the hands of electricity and gas engineers. Those meters cannot be elaborate lab gear, they must work well enough as cheap field instruments to allow the regulation of safety to be done on the spot. The latest advance in the field is the 15 year old (or more) Lasercheck, and it isn't good enough.
    Last edited by The_Doctor; 02-01-2014 at 14:59.

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    As was stated in an earlier post, more regulation is just going to lead to more people breaking the law. What the industry needs is a clear, accessible (read: CHEAP) path to safety. Part of the problem is that the pace of diode technology is increasing faster than the safety technology, and lets just face it, safety is not 'sexy'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stiffler View Post
    As was stated in an earlier post, more regulation is just going to lead to more people breaking the law. What the industry needs is a clear, accessible (read: CHEAP) path to safety.
    That's what I said, isn't it? As you say, safety devices are lagging dangerously behind the availaibility of strong diodes. Most of those people aren't scientists, or even bench test engineers. So they obviously need meters equivalent to the kind of domestic mains line tester or cheap multimeter.

    Those wouldn't solve the LOBO event's causes, but they will solve a much larger number of likely causes and prevent a much larger number of injuries.

    Take care not to confuse legislative based regulation with engineering regulation. I'm talking about the second, the real practical self-regulation we expect to build into any hazardous system. The point is to make it real, make it happen. That's the best way to keep the paper pushers off eveyone's backs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Doctor View Post
    ......
    Take care not to confuse legislative based regulation with engineering regulation. I'm talking about the second, the real practical self-regulation we expect to build into any hazardous system. The point is to make it real, make it happen. That's the best way to keep the paper pushers off eveyone's backs.
    Yep, spot on Doc!
    Maybe Pangolin could step up here? They already have several safety products - but a meter would sell in the thousands and give people true confidence in their shows.

    Keith

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galvonaut View Post
    Yep, spot on Doc!
    Maybe Pangolin could step up here? They already have several safety products - but a meter would sell in the thousands and give people true confidence in their shows.

    Keith
    Thanks. I may well be countered with claims that it's not easy, but something useful can probably be done...

    http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...?highlight=mpe
    In that thread Steve (mixedgas) mentions a fast photodiode with a metal film resistor soldered to the back, so it may be cheap and easy if you have a microcontroller to do the timed sampling and the maths.

    Steve's also said elsewhere that silicon has all kinds of difficulties that might make this harder than people will generally want to cope with. (Problems with CCD exposure and pulse edge detection, etc).

    In another thread I came up with this:
    Some simple chemical film that is adequately sensitive to gentle destruction, and simple to characterise for MPE measures, then have some CCD watching that in some small chamber? If you can take bafore/after images that way the CCD need not take direct stress, but only take images of that film the way 'nature' intended.. While I don't doubt that this is no way to replace observations of the innards of the average eyeball, might it not be consistent enough to read for MPE given simple aperture limits on entry to the chamber? ... If a fast photodiode detected the pulse, an otherwise shuttered-off CCD (with imaging lens) could have its shutter triggered open to take an image of the sensing film. It would have to be a very fast shutter in case a new beam arrived early enough to threaten the CCD, but the idea is that it might keep a CCD safe from the incoming light more often than not, and each capture prompted by the fast photodiode would be the 'after' image, and the 'before' for whatever came next. Software comparison of the images might be fast and maybe also easy if the sensing film was useful enough to do this. There may even be retinal cells made in labs that can help with that film, but I bet there are higher priorities for those right now..
    I think that with a moving shutter, and a way to move the film on a scroll to expose a new bit each time this is a silly idea with too many moving parts where there should ideally be none, but I quote it because there are some points that might be useful, like using a CCD to indirectly examine the light by its result on a surface that adequately responds to a beam in a way that can be scaled to match what happens to a retina.

    Accuracy may far less critical than consistency. Most cheap meters are only rated for 5% accuracy at best. The big thing about making ANY kind of mass-ownership MPE meter is that people can independently make some kind of consistent measure based on a 7mm aperture, a fast large area photodiode, a bulk absorber of energy, and a fast timing system that can do some maths and drive a display. If it were done so refinements and recalibration can be added easily it will help to make it useful if things change. Having the exact same MPE meter in the hands of most clubs and show operators might make up for a lack of accuracy, so long as those consistent readings CAN be referenced to an accurate system somewhere, somehow.

    The greatest difficulty might not be in acheiving the methods, but getting a consensus in which methods will be used. Now might be a good time for ILDA to look at that. In another thread I suggested that Casio or other big projector makers might want to do this, and I was told it's not really their business. It isn't. Laser shows are ILDA's business.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stiffler View Post
    As was stated in an earlier post, more regulation is just going to lead to more people breaking the law. What the industry needs is a clear, accessible (read: CHEAP) path to safety. Part of the problem is that the pace of diode technology is increasing faster than the safety technology, and lets just face it, safety is not 'sexy'.
    Hi Stiffler.
    I think the problem lays somewhere else.
    When you introduce rules you also have to check that the rules are taken serious, and as far as we see here in the Neterlands (i can only speak for my own country), there are no checks or only when something has happened, and if you ask why there are no checks we get the answer that they have no people to do these checks.
    I see a big chance here!

    Quote: What the industry needs is a clear, accessible (read: CHEAP) path to safety
    This would be the easiest way, but the problem is there aint a simple one size fits all solution at the moment or even in the future, scanfail is just one on the list, a very good one but without all the others at the end it's kinda "useless".
    It always comes to the knowledge and quick response of the operator, he should be able to recougnise an unsafe situation and act like he should do, so maybe your cheap path to safety lays arround the corner and the answer would be "education of the operators and mandatory checks by healt and security autority before a show".

    Second, we here on PL but also everyone who have the right knowledge also has his responsibility, as i see projectors got sold to everyone by internet.
    5 Watt of RGB power is not rare anymore, and like you said the technoligy let the power increase so fast that the danger crows every day.
    I can't buy a gun in the Nehterlands by internet without fill in a encyclopedia on forms, but if i want to buy a 20W laser it's completely legal, i only have to pay and the projector will be transported to my house without any questions.

    One other thing:
    Let me tell you a situation which happened to me last year.
    The organizer of an event had 2 christmas trees of trusses standing outside.
    These where 26/30ft high and had crush barriers in front so the crowed would stay on a safe distance.
    The lasers where placed in top and should point to a very high tower when a person on stage presses a button.
    At some point during the event the invited vips and a total of 50/100 people who won a price came up and were placed front row between the stage with the rest of the visitors behind them seperated by crash barriers.
    The speech ends, button is pressed lasers turns on and where not hitting the tower anymore.
    What happend was the following:
    Some vips (the people where we exspect to react like adults who where ties and the there wifes thinks they rule the world) literally climb in the tree because they can't see the object (where the lasers where pointed on).
    Because one of the trees moved an inch or so the beam didn't hit the object but passes it and shine right into open air.
    The security guys had the instruction to keep the crowd away from the trees but where no where there.
    This situations is just one in a million which could happen and we as operators should reqougnise the unsafe situation and stop the laser by the e-switch, it's not the solution the customer wants and the crowd could started yelling but for me i rather have a yelling crowd then someone who got injured!

    There are to many things where we have to think about, every job is different and has other problems to solve.
    I think there won't be a one size fits all solution SOON if there ever will be, but the laser industry keeps changing and changing day by day.
    We as operators have to be the one size fits all solution as long as there aint a electronic device which does it for us.
    Till then an organisation like Ilda who does a lot of research for our business gets a warm welcome from me just because when the goverment gets in here they 99% of the time will only ban instead of come with a good regulation (i'm speaking for the Netherlands at the moment).
    The Ilda could advice the goverment how they could get to workable regulations so we could do our jobs and the visitors are prevented from unresponsive people who buy lasers one day and do a show the second day without knowing where they working with.

    I think the right mandatory safety equipment with the right regulations leads to safe shows.

    A view weeks ago i got invited as Ilda member to get involved talk about how Europe should deal with lasershows and there safety.
    I think this is a good start instead of waiting till Brussel comes with rules without listening to the experience of the people who have to deal with it every day and we end up with bans, i think we still have the oppertunity to get somehere where both sides can come to a satisfied regulation.

    But it's just my personal opinion.

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    Some factoids based on this history that only a few people on PL know. This is a rant, I don't have time this morning to type out a proper paper.

    1. Laser safety will always rely on a trained operator following procedures. No combination of MPE Meters, Inclinometers, Scanfail, or Cameras with AI is going to replace a human operator. Many years ago the US FDA hired a team of scientists to follow a "Typical" laser show operator around and they made measurements and came up with a system that worked, placing the burden of safety on a trained operator who faced inspection and loss of business if he failed to follow the rules. This worked. The three meter and two meter rules worked, and audience scanning was a difficult burden to prove, but allowed if you could do the math. If you followed the rules, you followed a quality control worksheet for each show and documented your work each night at each site. I know, I've done it.

    2. Factoid, the above mentioned procedure is based on medical instrument quality control procedures for a reason. Most of you are unwilling to relinquish your "precious" audience scanning, so now we have a conundrum. An MPE meter will not fully solve the current problem. 10X MPE and the "Simple Method" is set up to ignore cumulative exposure. Its set up so you can scan all night at low power. The past MPE meters were set up to do both a instantaneous and cumulative exposure, allowing brighter effects for short periods of time. The cumulative effects were measured assuming the same show plays again and again, with no human intervention. You had to set through your whole show a few times holding the MPE meter where a typical audience member was. Now you cant, because you play the effects live. In the past it was assumed the whole audience stayed for the whole show and left. For the most part they did, because only a few events per year could afford lasers.

    There is no changing the bio-physics, so you have to assume the projector is in a club situation. Cumulative MPE matters.

    3. Shows back then were designed so that high power effects were above the "Zero Line" aka "X Axis" and audience scanning was done by adjusting the zero line to be just above the audience's heads. Audience scanning effects were all that was allowed below the zero line. This made calculating and measuring cumulative exposure easy, and show design easy. Any part of the show done live had to be above the zero line, and the rest was synced to the music, created off-line, and relied on the computer or ADAT tape playing exactly the same thing every time to the same music. A scan fail monitor looked at the position signals from the scanner.

    So when I took my show on tape to CANADA for a LFX conference, to compete in the awards, all I had to do was ensure the cool stuff was below the line and full power was above the line. I knew the left and right audience scanning scan heads were about 250 mW at full RGB White and mirrored on the X axis. I knew the distance to the audience and the fact that the fiber fed heads were adjusted for a given divergence. A power meter was used to ensure prior to the show the power to each scan head was correct. We had a informal standard set up by the conference organizers, and keeping with the regulatory QC scheme, we followed it. Safety people monitored the audience to ensure no one crossed forward of the minimum distance and no one stood up on a table or chair.

    Back then I could call Tarm or Lobo and order a show designed to fit a similar scheme, the ADAT Tape came with a minimum audience distance printed on the tape and a maximum power, assuming a non Q-switched, ion laser type beam with a known power.

    A full time safety person was required besides the show operator.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Fast forward to Today. The most common situation is: We have no control of where the audience is. We do not have a canned, pre-calculated show. We have operators pressing keys to interpret the music live. For the most part, We do not have trained operators following QC procedures. We do not have professionals, we have DJs who have the cash to buy a off the shelf box. If you do cumulative exposure, at some point during the night effects will have to go above the zero line or you shut the laser off. Thus effects have to be weak.

    So unless you can institute rules and enforcement, Pandora is out of the box. A MPE meter would help, but there are less then five people in the industry who look at PL who are qualified with the EE Degree and have the experience to design one. Three of them lurk and do not post here ever. It would be something like PASS, integrated in the projector. How you mandate PASS worldwide, I have no idea. How you mandate that PASS or similar systems stay calibrated, without regulatory checks I have no idea.
    You need enforceable calibration and frequent re-checking of the calibration. That calibration and stability is not achievable to levels that would make a engineer, lawyer or regulator happy, for 300$ or less. In 1990s Dollars, a MPE meter that would satisfy a court challenge was 3000$. It was not in mass production however. Cost today would be less, but how do you insure the yearly calibration and have it do self checks? It has to be built to medical instrument, five sigma reliability.


    The Unsung Hero of all this Past History is Greg Makhov, who will not post here. He simply does not have the time to handle major clients such as Disney, be ILDA Safety Chair, and have a family. Most full time, professionals don't have time for forums. We prefer email and phone for simple, direct, fast communications. I have no family, so I can somewhat lurk on PL. Anyone designing a MPE meter would have to work with Greg, as he knows the details inside out.

    We already have enough quality control issues with mass produced projectors, achieving the level of quality control needed..... I'm out of time, I will finish this post later.

    About trained operators. Example follows:

    I have to go be acting LSO on a project right now, My task today will be to insure a 30 Joule pulse every ten minutes does not harm 20 students and staff working in a lab. It is akin to herding cats. Until the laser is installed and tuned, not all of the safety gear can not be installed, and the beam must fire across the room for profiling. Operation of the high energy experiment in the huge room must continue, it is too expensive to shut down during the laser install. The safety briefing was brutal, procedures for entry into the controlled space were applied, and involved ZERO tolerance for human behavior. Think military firing range style controls and procedures. I have two people assisting me part time, to ensure compliant behavior and that I don't miss a procedure. People who cross into the controlled space without permission run a serious risk of being kicked out of grad school. I can't do that level of enforcement in a night club. We're working on a Sunday for a reason, but four of the twenty people still showed up yesterday at random times. One did not follow procedure, entered the area not wearing goggles, but we caught him before he got into the "HOT" area. He came in to ask about the required goggles. We said OD seven at least five times in the briefing. Humans are Humans. (In his defense, he needed a pair that would fit over his glasses, unforeseen problem.)

    People are un-predictable, so there must be a penalty for not following the rules, and there must be inspection. Self compliance worked in the old days when there were few shows.

    Some how, some way, we have "lucked out" and there are few reported incidents. But diode power is climbing.... The other user of lasers in public, the theatre industry, now uses the laser show industry as a example of "high risk".

    BTW, there is no self developing film material sensitive enough to emulate the human eyeball. I've tried...... We use a similar material to calibrate our instruments. It has to be a photodiode.

    End RANTEX. (Rant Exercise)



    Steve
    Last edited by mixedgas; 02-02-2014 at 06:01.
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    Integrated in the projector would be good. And I agree, replacing a human operator who knows what they're doing, and how to do it safely, is irreplaceable. My suggestions are all about encouraging and augmenting that, never replacing..

    Pandora's Box is as good a metaphor as any. I think we just have to make sure that not everything that comes out of it is a monster. The best way to guard against errant humans is to increase the number who find it easier to watch for them at the same time they have to watch everything else they have to work with. And photodiode it is. Whatever happens, it probably needs to be simple. I'm sure it might lack some rigour and acceptability in a court if anything came to that, but a bit of consistency that made enough people want some of it could be a good thing. Errant humans can often be herdlike, or at least respond to peer pressure. Harnessing that might be an important part of the 'engineering'. If nothing else, turn the inspection into a game they want to win. That's a flippant remark, but it's the difference between a horse that wants to drink, and a dead one that flogging will not budge.

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    Great post Steve and good points raised.

    Here in the UK we already have legislation in place that 'should' ensure that anyone operating a laser is an LSO. Just like the use of a ladder as a work platform is punishable under criminal law (afaiu) there is no policing until someone dies or is severely injured.

    I guess all we can do as operators is make sure that our shows are safe. All we can do as PL members is point out the safety issues surrounding lasers and as a community, keep having discussions like this - maybe one day we (probably not me) will rattle a workable solution out.

    Keith

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    There is a difference in between random designation as LSO and a LSO with the ILDA certificate, One who has had the German required training, or sat through James' courses and past a test.

    Anyone can claim to be a LSO, but the best situation is to have recognized training and a recognized certification. The ILDA certificate has a recognized curriculum, is taught by a professional, and has a exam that requires you to solve actual "story" problems. Its open notes and still has say a 50% pass rate. This is educationally rigorous. That is needed, it gives credibility.

    Steve

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