making your own fog juice?

[kecked]

osha has PELs (and vacated PELS...story for another day) ANSI is a guide not a law. Sometimes OSHA references ANSI which then makes the ANSI a pseudo law you have to follow because OSHA will cite you because they incorporated by reference the ANSI standard into their law.
OSHA applies to workers ONLY. Thus an audience is not a worker but an actor would be. So you have to follow OSHA for the actors but not the crowd. If you did it for the actors in the fog then the audience would be fine as well.

Plenty of studies show short term exposure to glycols et al is not harmful but long term it can lead to some moderate issue. That would be your own fluid or a store bought fluid.

Done....next topic.

ZORN is not US so it doesn't matter.

[jeejeedr]

Cipher 0, JeeJeedr,

.... You new guys are not the first inventors of being cheap, .....

Ahum, new guy? cheap?

My post was only to advocate for the liberty of speech and the liberty to experiment. I would personally never try to make my own juice because I have 2 kids running around and it is bad enough they come in contact with haze already.


And to go really offtopic: why is it like this on photonlexicon the last few years that a simple thread becomes very quickly a shouting contest from left to right and so on....
Why not just say: 'Ah, I've done some experiments in the past and I found that .... but I conclude that .....'

I imagine that half of the usefull info on PL gets burried under piles of arguments.

So I just ask, be a bit more patient, friendly, forgiving, ...

This is my last post on this topic because I'm doing right now what I just have been commenting on....

[buffo]

And this is why I never liked you buffo. You're a complete douchebag sometimes.

I'm a douchebag? Seriously? Take your own advice and go back and re-read this entire thread from the start. Go ahead, I'll wait...

Notice that my tone was respectful and helpful right up until Zorn made the statement that he doesn't have time for "people who have their head up their ass". (in a direct response to my very mildly worded caution to him to abandon the idea of making his own fluid as a cost saving measure because it wasn't worth it.) After that is when I blew up. So while flaming may be in bad form, I can perhaps be forgiven for loosing a little steam after being insulted like that. (Note: the relevant portion you're looking for starts around post # 36, when he first went off about my "wrong assumptions", but I didn't respond directly until i saw his post (# 42) where he really lost all cedibility...)

Now honestly, after you've re-read all that, you still think this is my fault? If so, then I respectfully submit that you have no idea how people should behave on-line

Bottom line - if someone attacks me personally, I'll respond in kind. Yes, I know that a bigger man would shrug it off and move on, and I'll admit that I do try to ignore things like that, but no one is perfect. I may share some of the guilt in escalating this, but by no means did I start it, nor am I solely responsible for the shitstorm that this thead has become.

As Steve already mentioned, I do a hell of a lot around here (and not just in the forums, but with other activities such as SELEM, FLEM, and repairing people's projectors - such as DrEvil's machine which I worked on just last weekend - or sending parts to people in need, like the HGM fiber launch I sent to turbohead recently.) So yeah, I do take it personally when someone spits in my face about my contributions here.

More importantly though, the real issue that gets under my skin is when some clueless newbie asks a question, gets an answer that he doesn't like, and then argues with the people who are providing free advice to him. THAT was my point to Zorn. Was it wrong to point it out? I don't think so, but I am willing to admit that I'm biased here.

How can he make the research himself if he isn't a chemist and can't spend 2K on a lab experiment?

No one is asking him to do a GC analysis of the fluid. Kecked asked him to send a sample of the fluid he got from the vendor that sold him the fog machine. As of yesterday, he was still waiting for that sample to arrive. If he's not willing to participate in the experiment, why are we helping him again?

And guess what, I'm sick of it.

That's too bad for you. Personally, I believe your perception is grossly distorted. But whatever. If you're truly sick of it, simply add me to your ignore filter and you'll never have to read my posts ever again.

And to go really offtopic: why is it like this on photonlexicon the last few years that a simple thread becomes very quickly a shouting contest from left to right and so on...

The same thing is happening here that happened on the alt.lasers usnet newsgroup in early 2000. The increase in popularity brings out lots of new users who want (or even demand) instant gratification, and when a senior laserist tells them that there is no free lunch, they get upset and lash out. It's a common problem with many, many discussion forums. (LaserPointerForums has suffered from this as well.) It's a consequence of the influx of new people. Admittedly though, there is probably a language and/or cultural barrier at work here as well, but I believe it's a minor factor.

Why not just say: 'Ah, I've done some experiments in the past and I found that .... but I conclude that .....'

The first 20 posts in this thread contain information much like your example above. However, certain people wouldn't accept the advice and experience of the folks that took the time to share their knowledge. Things got hostile, and it all spiraled down from there.

If you have a solution, I'd be interested to hear it...

Adam

[mixedgas]

Summary:

Modern glycol (polyvalent alcohol) based fog machines work with a chamber temperature that should be below 360-400'C and are driven by vaporization mechanisms(3). They are designed to avoid combustion, although small amounts of various extremely toxic combustion products can be generated when the fluid is initially sprayed onto the chamber heater. If the chamber temperature is incorrect, the mechanisms that create reaction toxic products are greatly accelerated. Seven chemical materials (2) used in combination with water have been found to be reasonably safe when used in these machines as designed provided the chamber temperature is correctly limited and droplet size is verified to be within a certain range. Certain materials such as Ethylene Glycol have been found to be very hazardous when used and have been removed from the market. Extreme low cost or home made machines may easily have excessive chamber temperature and are to be avoided.

Modern machines have moved away from early mixtures of pure glycerin or pure propylene glycol with water due to the fact that these mixtures have a lower index of refraction, require higher chamber temperatures, have poor droplet size, lower vapor pressure, and result in a slippery residue. While these mixtures may work, modern machines have lower chamber temperatures and are optimized for proprietary mixtures. Modern mixtures are optimized for a high index of refraction resulting in greater light scattering for a given volume of fluid, thus enhancing safety and reducing the amount of fluid needed. Modern mixtures are not creating smoke, which is a combustion product. Very pure, sterile, fluids are needed, to ensure safety and to prevent early clogging of nozzles or scaling in the heater chamber. Proprietary Additives are used to ensure mixing and long term stability.

Homemade binary mixtures of readily available chemicals with distilled water are likely to be poor performers. While some would like to claim that any mixture will work in any machine, in reality modern solutions are highly optimized in terms of performance, cost, and operation at low chamber temperatures to enhance safety.
Thus fluids from different manufacturers may not be interchangeable with all machines.

Maximum peak levels of 40 milligrams per cubic meter of fog in air and a eight hour daily maximum exposure maximum of 10 milligrams per cubic meter during a eight hour day exist in US and UK standards for staff and recommended audience exposure to fog. Exposure shall be minimized to persons who have Asthma, Respiratory Disease, Allergies, are Pregnant, Aged, or are Children. REF (1)

Quoting the PLASA Manual: " In the United Kingdom, propylene glycol has an Occupational Exposure Standard (OES) of 470mg/m3 total, with a limit of 10mg/m3 for the particulate component. Diethylene glycol has an exposure standard of 100mg/m3, and for glycerin the standard is 10mg/m3. " REF (4)


ESTA, OSHA, NFPA, IATSE, and Actors Equity Contact standards apply to the commercial use of fog machines in the US. Standards also exist in the UK for the safe use of Fog.

Recommendation: That the PL community follow commercial practice and thus no longer refer to Aqueous / Glycol based Fog machines as Smoke Machines. The functional mechanisms are entirely different, chiefly vaporization vs. combustion.


References:

(1)ANSI STANDARD E1.23 2006 Design and Execution of Fog Effects

(2)ANSI STANDARD E1.5 2003, 2009 Theatrical Fog made with Aqueous Solutions of Di and TriHydric Alcohols

(3)ANSI STANDARD E1.29 Product Standard for Product Safety Standard for Theatrical Fog Generators that Create Aerosols of Water,
Aqueous Solutions of Glycol or Glycerin, or Aerosols of Highly Refined Alkane Mineral Oil

(4) PLASA: INTRODUCTION TO MODERN ATMSOPHERIC EFFECTS, 4Th Edition. C: 2012 PLASA

(5) BSR E1.23 - 200x, Entertainment Technology - Design and Execution of Theatrical Fog Effects

-------------Steve---------------------------

[Stiffler]

Has anyone figured out where Zorn lives? He refused to tell me, and now he is on my ignore list so I haven't read his recent posts. Since his motives are cost savings (and even if he saves a few bucks making his own juice, he has spent a shit load of his & other peoples time), then it would make sense to figure out where the local production companies/fire fighters/airports are getting it. He doesn't live on a deserted island, SOMEONE there should have it or know how to get it.

[cipher0]

I'm a douchebag? Seriously? Take your own advice and go back and re-read this entire thread from the start.

And so I did. And guess what, I think you're the one who should do it instead.
You're either playing dumb and hoping to bury the important posts in this thread even more. Or you have memory issues, and not saying this in a disrespectful way, I literally mean it. Because:

Kecked asked him to send a sample of the fluid he got from the vendor that sold him the fog machine. As of yesterday, he was still waiting for that sample to arrive.

Show me the post where zorn says he has "fluid he got from the vendor that sold him the fog machine".
He wanted an experimentation done on glycerin. kecked hasn't asked for a sample of glycerin. That's a waste of money and time since in can be found in every pharmacy. What kecked has asked is a sample of commercial fog fluid because someone else asked for it.

Look:

I will also try glycerin in my fog unit and measure the output products. I will also see if I can pull the temperature higher to the point it makes a problem. If I find a problem I'll post here.

kecked, looking forward to your experiment results.

Edit: just checked filter. It is full of glycerin. It must have cooked it because it is yellow and not clear. That means I should see some polymer and acrolein/adlehydes. It's in the NMR now. I'll read it in the morning. That could also be rust from my chamber.

Still no update on this.

And then we have

Someone seriously needs to work out the ratios for the Smoke Factory Tour hazer/Look Unique/Haze Base Base Hazer Pro fluid

Liquid gold for someone that stuff is, at £40 a gallon...

send me a sample. need about 50ml. I'll run the required analysis and let you know.

More importantly though, the real issue that gets under my skin is when some clueless newbie asks a question, gets an answer that he doesn't like

But you're not answering his question. You're trying to find an alternative and then answer how to go that alternative route when you haven't been asked to. And then when someone doesn't accept that as an answer to their question (because it isn't) you get upset. And this is the same method Stiffler is using.

[norty303]

P.S. in case it was missed, I've already offered to send some samples of fluids (can do the Thomann HD fluid and Smoke Factory Tour Hazer fluid) if someone will PM me a mailing address.

[buffo]

And so I did. And guess what, I think you're the one who should do it instead.

I did read it, all of it, before I posted my reply above. By comparison, it seems clear from your reply that you didn't bother reading much past the first few posts. Or else you decided not to comment on the salient points I raised.

So allow me to repeat myself: Please re-read from post # 34 through # 50 in this thread. Take note of the insults thrown by Zorn, at multiple targets.

Now, in the context of those insults, consider my reply. Then come back here so we can discuss your "douchebag" comment you accused me of (which is what I was replying to in the first place). Personally, I feel your comment is grossly unfair and utterly uncalled for.

Show me the post where zorn says he has "fluid he got from the vendor that sold him the fog machine".

In his very first post, he discusses the fog solution the vendor suggested. It's referenced again (briefly) in post # 4. Forgive me for interpreting that as being the fluid he actually purchased. If it wasn't, then what is he using for fluid right now? (After all, later on he asks about how much fog he should use to fill a garage, as if he was unclear as to whether he was over-fogging or under-fogging. Does that not sound like he already owns and has been using his fogger to you?)

Likewise, read his post # 42. "Shipping can cost for me 4x the cost of the fluid and customs will drink my blood before they let me take a fluid from them. Sorry but for people like me that is too much and we are okay with poor results."

Sure sounds like he's bought the fluid, doesn't it? He surely seems to speak with authority with regard to it's price, not to mention his apparent familiarity with customs rules surrounding fluid shipments...

If I've miss-interpreted his post, then I accept my error. But even if he hasn't purchased any fog juice yet, it's clear that he has NOT entertained any of the alternatives that were suggested to him by several very experienced people.

Bottom line: people have tried to explain to him why making your own fluid is a bad idea, both from a financial standpoint and from a risk avoidance one. He has consistently refused to accept these explanations.

He wanted an experimentation done on glycerin.

Re-read posts # 5 and 17 in the thread. Glycerin is not a major component of commercial fog solution. That is why people tried to talk him out of glycerin. But he wasn't listening. It appears that you have also missed this point.

What kecked has asked is a sample of commercial fog fluid because someone else asked for it.

And if Zorn is so interested in making his own solution, why not send Kecked a sample of the fluid that his vendor has? After all, it would certainly be a promising starting point towards making the correct fluid, no? But he couldn't be bothered to do that - he wanted other people to do it for him. That's pretty arrogant - to ignore the advice of others and then basically demand that someone else do the science for him so he can try making his own fluid...

But you're not answering his question.

His question (making your own fog juice?) was answered several times in the first 20 posts in this thread, by MULTIPLE people. It's not cost-effective, and it carries risks that are not worth taking. The *ONE* person who said they had success with home-made fluid claimed a 3-5:1 ratio, but another poster commented that this exact mix tended to separate after being stored for a very short time.

So yes, I answered his question, though admittedly nowhere nearly as completely as many others did.

You're trying to find an alternative

Yes, of course. After answering his question with the unfortunate truth, I offered alternatives. So did many other people. You think it's a bad thing that people are offering alternatives? I really don't know what to say to that...

and then answer how to go that alternative route when you haven't been asked to.

So you're suggesting that after telling someone that their idea won't work, we should just leave them with no other options? That's beyond stupid, it's just rude...

And then when someone doesn't accept that as an answer to their question (because it isn't) you get upset.

No, I get upset when someone doesn't listen to what people are saying and goes right back to the initial question hoping for a different answer. Just like you seem hell-bent on the glycerin idea, when it was already posted that glycol, not glycerin, is the primary ingredient.

I've done my best to keep my anger out of this post. Please read it carefully before replying.

Adam

[cipher0]

In his very first post, he discusses the fog solution the vendor suggested. It's referenced again (briefly) in post # 4. Forgive me for interpreting that as being the fluid he actually purchased. If it wasn't, then what is he using for fluid right now?

Propylene glycol and water like he said?

(After all, later on he asks about how much fog he should use to fill a garage, as if he was unclear as to whether he was over-fogging or under-fogging. Does that not sound like he already owns and has been using his fogger to you?)

No, it doesn't. Seems perfectly normal to ask such a question before getting a fogger just to have an answer ready when you get one.

Likewise, read his post # 42. "Shipping can cost for me 4x the cost of the fluid and customs will drink my blood before they let me take a fluid from them. Sorry but for people like me that is too much and we are okay with poor results."

Sure sounds like he's bought the fluid, doesn't it? He surely seems to speak with authority with regard to it's price, not to mention his apparent familiarity with customs rules surrounding fluid shipments...

No. Because you're assuming that by "fluid" he means fog juice. You're again making an assumption.

If I've miss-interpreted his post, then I accept my error. But even if he hasn't purchased any fog juice yet, it's clear that he has NOT entertained any of the alternatives that were suggested to him by several very experienced people.

Sure sounds like he has if you believe he truly knows his customs laws and has switched to other glycols suggested here (which I personally think is pointless).

Bottom line: people have tried to explain to him why making your own fluid is a bad idea, both from a financial standpoint and from a risk avoidance one. He has consistently refused to accept these explanations.

No he hasn't. You're yet again assuming what he wants to do from the knowledge he is gathering here.

And you're yet again assuming your views are shared by most or everyone here. The only person here who has done any study reported no traces of acrolein,etc. after using glycerin in a fog juice.

Re-read posts # 5 and 17 in the thread. Glycerin is not a major component of commercial fog solution.

Oh now we're getting somewhere. At least now we agree glycerin is used in some commercial fluids.

And if Zorn is so interested in making his own solution, why not send Kecked a sample of the fluid that his vendor has? After all, it would certainly be a promising starting point towards making the correct fluid, no?

But he couldn't be bothered to do that - he wanted other people to do it for him. That's pretty arrogant - to ignore the advice of others and then basically demand that someone else do the science for him so he can try making his own fluid...

He wanted glycerin tested. That's all he wanted. And now you're saying he's arrogant for not doing something himself which he has never asked other to do for him. You claim he wanted others to do it. You have ZERO evidence to say that.

So you're suggesting that after telling someone that their idea won't work, we should just leave them with no other options? That's beyond stupid, it's just rude...

No I'm telling you to not whine when the OP doesn't feel the thread is complete when you or anyone else presents an alternative and call that "not accepting an answer to their question", because presenting an alternative isn't answering the damn question!

[Stiffler]

But you're not answering his question. You're trying to find an alternative and then answer how to go that alternative route when you haven't been asked to. And then when someone doesn't accept that as an answer to their question (because it isn't) you get upset. And this is the same method Stiffler is using.

Cipher,

Zorn has stated multiple times in this thread that his primary motivation is cost saving, not scientific enlightenment. Because of this, suggesting alternatives that could meet this goal is perfectly relevant to his OP, unless he has some hidden agenda. This is why several others have made brand name recommendations, and why I asked for his location; we were trying to HELP.