making your own fog juice?

[Stiffler]

[QUOTE=cipher0;294476]Propylene glycol and water like he said?[QUOTE/]

No, he said "Im planning on buying a cheap fogger like that, but the litre of fog juice the person sells is like 40% of the price of the fogger. And since he says 1 litre gets used up in 1 minute by that fogger and also he doesnt always have fog juice in his shop i think i should try to make my own juice."

No. Because you're assuming that by "fluid" he means fog juice. You're again making an assumption.

He was, in fact, speaking of fog fluid. What other "fluid" do you think he meant?

Oh now we're getting somewhere. At least now we agree glycerin is used in some commercial fluids.

Now YOU are making assumptions, as no one said that it is even a small component.

He wanted glycerin tested. That's all he wanted. And now you're saying he's arrogant for not doing something himself which he has never asked other to do for him.

Then he should pay a lab to test it! No one here has ANY obligation to help, and it is arrogant to believe otherwise.

[cipher0]

Zorn has stated multiple times in this thread that his primary motivation is cost saving, not scientific enlightenment.

It's not just about money, being from Turkey I can think of problems like long shipping time, customs handling, as well as other reasons:

Again, ive found a shop which sells propylene glycol.
But it doesnt mean im not interested in study on glycerin. There are people all over the world and people i know using glycerin as fog juice an im interested if they are seriously damaging their health. Ive been in parties where glycerin based fog juice has been used and ive been exposed to it. Ive given electronic cigarettes as gift which use glycerin cartridges.
I have reasons to be interested.

Because of this, suggesting alternatives that could meet this goal is perfectly relevant to his OP

Okay, fine, suggest an alternative. But don't whine if the OP doesn't find it suitable for him and even explains why, and call that "not accepting an answer to his question" and "not listening", because it isn't an answer to his question, it is an alternative.

He was, in fact, speaking of fog fluid.

And you know this because...?

Now YOU are making assumptions, as no one said that it is even a small component.

They have actually... -_-
I'm tired of quoting old posts, press Ctr+F in your browser, type "glycerin". You'll find it.
Oh, and
http://www.americandj.com/pdffiles/AMERFOG.PDF
http://www.elationlighting.com/pdffi...fluid_msds.pdf

Then he should pay a lab to test it! No one here has ANY obligation to help, and it is arrogant to believe otherwise.

Yes nobody had, and nobody said they have! kecked did it himself, in his own will, because he was interested or whatever. What is wrong with you people?

[Stiffler]

It's not just about money, being from Turkey I can think of problems like long shipping time, customs handling, as well as other reasons:

Obviously these things would need to be considered, but you also need to factor in the time & hassle involved with acquiring multiple chemicals, mixing them & storing them. Maybe in the end home made juice is a better value, maybe it's not. I specifically asked where he was from to see if maybe there were other forum members nearby that could help him. If there are other forum members in his vicinity, maybe it would be possible to do a "group buy" and get fog fluid at a discount.

Okay, fine, suggest an alternative. But don't whine if the OP doesn't find it suitable for him and even explains why, and call that "not accepting an answer to his question" and "not listening", because it isn't an answer to his question, it is an alternative.

At a point early on, Zorn accused a forum member of having his head up his ass, without provocation. It was shortly after this that the thread took a wrong turn, and when other members started showing frustration. Had he shown a little more decorum, he could have steered his thread back on track. You catch more flies with hone than vinegar.

And you know this because...?

Because the entire thread is about fog fluid!!

What is wrong with you people?

We are all NUTS!!

[cipher0]

Because the entire thread is about fog fluid!!

That's just stupid.
He said he's tried importing fluid before and knows the difficulties. Just because he said it in a thread about fog fluid doesn't prove it was fog fluid. He could mean any fluid is difficult to import to his country.

And this is becoming pointless.

You see now that some manufacturers (like americandj) use glycerin?
If that isn't enough for you to consider it safe,even though I think it should be, do you see now how there not much proof about safety of glycerin as much as there is no proof about safety of glycols?
So you can use simple logic to conclude homemade and commercial fluids are both harmless (or harmful).

Basically what this guy said

Plenty of studies show short term exposure to glycols et al is not harmful but long term it can lead to some moderate issue. That would be your own fluid or a store bought fluid.

[Stiffler]

That's just stupid.
He said he's tried importing fluid before and knows the difficulties. Just because he said it in a thread about fog fluid doesn't prove it was fog fluid. He could mean any fluid is difficult to import to his country.

Assuming that Zorn isn't speaking of fog fluid, what makes either of you think that the import process is identical for all fluids? I'm sure that importing blood plasma is going to require different paperwork than importing milk, for example. Once again, this is why his location is relevant.

And this is becoming pointless.

It has been pointless since you personally attacked Buffo several posts back. I do not know Buffo outside of PL, but he has done a hell of a lot more for this thread (and forum!) than either you or I.

You see now that some manufacturers (like americandj) use glycerin?

You know, I cook a mean Strip Steak with Pepper Cream Sauce, but I can assure you that if I leave the NY strip out of the recipe, it won't taste right. Get my point?

[Laser Wizardry]

" 15 characters"

[cipher0]

Assuming that Zorn isn't speaking of fog fluid, what makes either of you think that the import process is identical for all fluids? I'm sure that importing blood plasma is going to require different paperwork than importing milk, for example. Once again, this is why his location is relevant.

Not saying his location is not important, but if he refuses to give his location, maybe you should be respectful and assume he knows enough already and doesn't think you need to research his own country for him. Or maybe his just paranoid about his privacy online, I don't know, I don't care.
But I will say this: in some countries importing anything is problematic.
Do you know anyone from Argentina? Ask them how hard it is to import anything at all unless someone brings it with him in his luggage. Someone I knew from Bueons Aires said he even couldn't take a box of candies out of customs.
Maybe you can find a solution for importing some fog juice for him and he's missing a great chance, or maybe not. Lets stop annoying him when he's said he has checked all the options and doesn't want us to do that?

It has been pointless since you personally attacked Buffo several posts back. I do not know Buffo outside of PL, but he has done a hell of a lot more for this thread (and forum!) than either you or I.

What buffo has and hasn't done in this forum or who he is doesn't automatically make him right.
I think he's a douchebag sometimes in this forum. Did he deserve to be responded like that? I'd react the same way because he was getting really annoying. You probably think I'm wrong. Fine. I'm not going to apologize, and I don't think Zorn is either. You can either continue posting about it or show you're mature enough to not give a fuck what someone said on the internet, ignore him and spend your time on better things.

You know, I cook a mean Strip Steak with Pepper Cream Sauce, but I can assure you that if I leave the NY strip out of the recipe, it won't taste right. Get my point?

Yeah, I got your point and I don't think you had to make an analogy.

My point wasn't that by using glycerin you'll get the same results as with professional quality fog juices though.

I was talking about why glycerin isn't any different from glycols when it comes to our knowledge of safety.

And I don't see you making counterarguments on that anymore.

Additionally, justifying the use of glycerin because some of the worst fog juice on the market contain it does not make for a very strong argument.

Yeah, AmericanDJ fucking sucks, right? And that wasn't my only argument either. I'm saying if you're okay with glycols, you have to be okay with glycerin, because when it comes down to safety alone they are (as far as we know) the same.

How do we know they didn't just copy the data in those MSDS files from another older version.. I mean we all know how the chinese love to plagiarize ( invent) many product spec sheets, as well as the products themselves in an unfortunate many cases.

Which is chinese? Elation, or AmericanDJ?

You can use simple logic to conclude that both homemade and commercial fluids can both be HARMFUL...

Yes! Eaxctly! And like I've said already, being okay with a person buying commercial fluids but going crazy about him mixing his own is illogical because they both have glycerin or glycol in them which still aren't 100% proven to be harmless and there are ongoing studies.

Anybody who has ever worked nightly/ weekly club events knows exactly how their lungs feel after multiple nights of crappy fog juice......

I have. How did you feel? Please tell us more scare stories...

[buffo]

I'm not going to apologize, and I don't think Zorn is either. You can either continue posting about it or show you're mature enough to not give a fuck what someone said on the internet, ignore him and spend your time on better things.

This statement right here proves that if anyone in this thread is a douchbag, it's you. I can't help but notice that you've completely ignored the entire issue. Maybe that's because you don't want to admit you were wrong. Or perhaps it's because you already said you won't apologize (presumably, even if you are in the wrong).

You have consistently miss-interpreted everyone's actions here as being malicious, when in fact they have simply been trying to share their knowledge and advice.

As to your comments above about what sort of "fluid" is being discussed, that is beyond crazy. If you want to go out on a limb and say that we've been discussing anything other than fog fluid, then you are deluding yourself and there's no real point in trying to convince you otherwise.

I'm saying if you're okay with glycols, you have to be okay with glycerin, because when it comes down to safety alone they are (as far as we know) the same.

It's clear you aren't a chemist, so stop pretending to be one. A blanket statement like this is exactly why other people in this thread have been so quick to point out the real hazards associated with making your own fog solution. If you don't know the basics of organic chemistry, you have no business saying shit like this. Remember that other people read this forum, and your ill-informed comments can (and likely will) be read, and possibly acted upon, by others.

Granted, I'm not a chemist either (my degree is in computer science), but I have worked at a multi-divisional chemical manufacturing facility for over 2 decades now, and prior to that I was a Navy nuc, so I'm fairly well-versed when it comes to basic chemistry. (Not to mention environmental control, which is where my current job responsibility lies.) Let me put that to use for a moment to address you galactically-stupid comment above.

To re-iterate: Glycerin (or more accurately, Glycerol) is a simple sugar alcohol that is more or less harmless in it's normal state. However, when heated (as in a fog machine heating element), it will crack to Acrolein, which is highly toxic. This happens at less than 300 degrees c.

Now, just how toxic is Acrolein? The acute minimal reference level (basically the concentration you can be continuously exposed to without suffering any immediate health risks) is 3 parts per BILLION. That's the equivalent of 7 micrograms per cubic METER of air. And note that this is just for acute effects. Chronic effects can still occur. (The jury is still out as to whether it's a carcinogen or not.)

Put another way, if you assume your fog machine uses just 8 ounces of fluid per hour (236 grams, using the density of water), and the solution has just 10% glycerin (a ridiculously low number), and you say that less than 1% of that gets converted to Acrolein, you still have 236,000 micrograms of acrolein produced. That means to be safe, you need to mix that with 33,700 cubic meters of air! That's a space equivalent to over 230 average 2-car garages! Every hour! And remember, these are very low estimates.

By contrast, even though both ethylene and propylene glycol are moderately toxic in their normal state, they are far less likely to decompose into hazardous substances like Acrolein when heated. So while not everyone is "OK" with glycols (at least in a home-made concoction), they are still *MUCH* safer than glycerin because of the reduced risk of hazardous by-products.

Admittedly, when speaking of Acrolein exposure, if the concentration is only slightly above the AMRL, the effects will probably be mild and limited to eye irritation. But using glycerin in a home-made fog fluid almost ensures that you will be exposed to concentrations that are several orders of magnitude higher than the AMRL. This is why commercial fog solutions need to have extra additives to prevent esters from forming and/or to inhibit the decomposition of the fogging agent. (And it's also why the primary component in commercial fluids is glycol and not glycerin.)

Now, you might call this a scare story. But it's backed up by hard science and regulatory restrictions. If you can't accept that, then do your own research. The sources are freely available. Here's a good place to start:

http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/hlthef/acrolein.html
http://www.tceq.texas.gov/assets/pub...4/acrolein.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrolein

And in the future, before you start arguing with research chemists (Kecked), or seasoned laserists with decades of commercial experience (MixedGas, Laser wizardry), or even someone like me who has simply done his homework on the topic, you really should read up on the topic first. Hell, at least Zorn was aware of the Acrolein issue, all the way back in post # 30.

Adam

[cipher0]

This statement right here proves that if anyone in this thread is a douchbag, it's you. I can't help but notice that you've completely ignored the entire issue. Maybe that's because you don't want to admit you were wrong. Or perhaps it's because you already said you won't apologize (presumably, even if you are in the wrong).

You have consistently miss-interpreted everyone's actions here as being malicious, when in fact they have simply been trying to share their knowledge and advice.

Talking about misinterpreting... I see you're spewing even more bullshit.
I guess you want me to stick your head in the mud even more. Okay, here we go:

As to your comments above about what sort of "fluid" is being discussed, that is beyond crazy. If you want to go out on a limb and say that we've been discussing anything other than fog fluid, then you are deluding yourself and there's no real point in trying to convince you otherwise.

Bullshit. You're making a straw man. I was talking about a specific post by zorn, claiming there's no reason to think zorn meant "fog juice" when he said he would have issues getting "a fluid" out of the customs:
He said :

customs will drink my blood before they let me take a fluid from them.

ive needed to ship something like this before, many times. I've talked with lawyers, ive looked at all the options, i asked everyone.

This, and the fact that he said he was just thinking of getting his first fogger and fog juice in the very beginning of this thread leaves little reason to assume he meant fog fluid would be hard to get from customs specifically.

It's clear you aren't a chemist, so stop pretending to be one.

I'm not pretending to be one. You, however do, you lousy hypocrite. You claim how acrolein can be generated from glycerin, but do you know all the conditions needed for that to occur? No. Do you know if a fog machine provides those conditions? No, you don't. So unless you can prove or have proof of this, rest of your post about acrolein is pointless.
And kecked's tests didn't show acrolein or anything hazardous being generated either.

And in the future, before you start arguing with research chemists (Kecked)

I'm not arguing with kecked, I'm arguing with you and your friend whose in the business of "bottled tap water" who comes here and scares and disrespects people.
I'm actually looking forward to more tests from kecked. So far I only see glycerin not showing any signs of being harmful:

Ok finished tests at lunch. Using glycerine in a viper fog machine 30% 70% water it made a fog that was kind of boring and more like a smoke. It smelled bad as well. There was no formaldehyde, acetaldehyde, or acrolein measured. I have been collecting the polymers if they exist for about 3 hours. I will do the extraction and nmr after work today. So far nothing is seen but the fog sucks and stinks. A preliminary filter showed nothing but excess glycerin on the filter.

His edit later doesn't make it clear whether the yellow thing he saw in the filter he thinks is rust or acrolein/etc was after he used glycerin or "his favorite rosco fog". And we still don't know what it was.

I'm really getting tired of having to quote old posts...

And I'm getting tired of repeating what my point is:
There's no 100% proof that using glycerin is harmless
There's no 100% proof that using some glycols is harmless
We know commercial fluids can use both.
So telling people to not use homemade glycerin fluid while being okay with them using commercial fluid is illogical.

[Laser Wizardry]

" 15 characters"