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[swamidog]

thanks for the clarification dz.

i didn't look into beyond pricing, i just hit the ld2k link on the pangolin website. beyond seems quite worthy and for a new user, starting directly with beyond instead of LD2k makes a lot of sense.

i would really like to see an interchangeable data format. it's not that the ilda format is awesome (it isn't), it's just the only way to currently exchange frames between apps. personally, i'd rather see something like postscript used.

Actually, for $1495 you get Beyond, with a choice of either the FB3 or a QM2K. If you choose the QM2K you can also run LD2K and ST2K. If you go the QM2K route, you can export from Beyond to LD2K format, then export as ILDA. Not really sure why anyone would want to export to ILDA though, it really is a worthless format, in my opinion. I remember when Bill introduced the QM2K back in 1999, prior to that I used the QM32. Because of the support and quality of product, there will always be a QM2K in my arsenal.

[White-Light]

Not trying to troll, just saying I would love to be able to see that show but won't be able to...

What I'm angry about is Pangolin's disabling making shows in .ild file format... Especially since I have it on good authority that they used to allow it. Why not anymore? Dunno... If I create a show I should be able to put it in any format I want, especially if I'm using my own graphics or making them from scratch... Trust me, as expensive as Pangolin is, I would buy it in a heartbeat if I could do .ild files... That's why I'm holding out for LSX... NOT because of the "price..."

LSX is a hobbyist created package as I'm sure you know.

Last time I looked practically every other commercial package does the same to protect their own created content ie cues.

There's also some argument over whether or not ILDA can store all the information various designers require it to.

I believe Fiesta, Moncha, Mamba, Phoenix etc all have their own cue formats.

[rodman1369]

LSX is a hobbyist created package as I'm sure you know.

Ah...But look what you can create with LSX! ie...Swamidog's shows.
I have Quickshow...and I think it's great...but I want to add LSX to my arsenal for the abstract creation tools.

[VibrationsOfDoom]

Actually, for $1495 you get Beyond, with a choice of either the FB3 or a QM2K. If you choose the QM2K you can also run LD2K and ST2K. If you go the QM2K route, you can export from Beyond to LD2K format, then export as ILDA. Not really sure why anyone would want to export to ILDA though, it really is a worthless format, in my opinion. I remember when Bill introduced the QM2K back in 1999, prior to that I used the QM32. Because of the support and quality of product, there will always be a QM2K in my arsenal.

To be honest, $1500 is WAY more than I'd EVER be willing to spend for a software package... There's hundreds of priorities in life that come way before I drop that much money on a piece of software!!

[White-Light]

Ah...But look what you can create with LSX! ie...Swamidog's shows.
I have Quickshow...and I think it's great...but I want to add LSX to my arsenal for the abstract creation tools.

Swami himself will admit that the reason he can author the wonderful abstract shows he does is not because there's anything special in LSX - everything effect wise you can do in LSX I believe you can do in Beyond and Beyond can do much much more. (Swami's vision and talent of course is something else).

I'm sure he won't mind me saying this, but the abstracts he creates are not true abstracts but cues that look like abstracts. He takes a cue then applies effects to the cue, to create a cue with abstract form / movement. He doesn't take abstract generators and create abstracts.

The difference between Beyond and LSX, is LSX comes with more base shape templates to which you can apply effects. That's the only limitation to Beyond. Less preset shapes. If you were to add lots of preset shape templates to Beyond, then you could do exactly the same Swami style abstracts.

If you put aside the pre-set shapes and thus the abstract form cues you can create, then I believe you really can't compare the two packages for features.

To be honest, $1500 is WAY more than I'd EVER be willing to spend for a software package... There's hundreds of priorities in life that come way before I drop that much money on a piece of software!!

Well again there's a difference. LSX is aimed at hobbyists primarily although it's pro capable.

Beyond is aimed at Pro's although some deep pocketed hobbyists purchase it. It's not intended to be affordable to all but rather a high end pro package.

[swamidog]

allow me to gently clarify a few things:

i very much like the lissajous abstract editor in LSX, but i don't have enough experience with Beyond to compare the two. fundamentally, they all work the same (twiddling oscillators and looking for intriguing harmonics).

my shows are mostly varying combinations of abstracts derived from cloning and transforming/translating static frames *and* abstracts created with the lissajous editor. i absolutely make use the abstract generator to create abstract effects and i briefly demonstrated this during my presentation at SELEM 2014. hopefully, that video will be online in the near future. i think, maybe, the confusion about my show programming style stems from SELEM 2013 LSX talk i gave that only covered abstracts via frame manipulation.

i posted a small snip of my "cotton eye joe" lsx show file to PL a while back as a way to help others learn how to use lissajous based abstracts. please let me know if you (or anyone) want a copy.

edit: here http://www.monkeyhands.com/images/ph...-eye-candy.rtd

these three shows were all created with a combination of realtime lissajous and frame based effects. i think you would be very surprised at which is which.

i have ordered them in most to least lissajous.

http://youtu.be/vxcG3De-TTM
http://youtu.be/wUQ70s0VFJs
http://youtu.be/yVOTBoSFPZI

i'm a little inconsistent about this, but if my shows have the word "analog" in the title, it means they were derived from me trying to create analog knob box style abstracts with the LSX lissajous editor.

as i've soapboxed about in the past. these are just tools, use whatever tool that fits your needs at the time. it doesn't matter if the screwdriver has a red or black handle as long as it turns the screws.

clear as mud?

Swami himself will admit that the reason he can author the wonderful abstract shows he does is not because there's anything special in LSX - everything effect wise you can do in LSX I believe you can do in Beyond and Beyond can do much much more. (Swami's vision and talent of course is something else).

I'm sure he won't mind me saying this, but the abstracts he creates are not true abstracts but cues that look like abstracts. He takes a cue then applies effects to the cue, to create a cue with abstract form / movement. He doesn't take abstract generators and create abstracts.

The difference between Beyond and LSX, is LSX comes with more base shape templates to which you can apply effects. That's the only limitation to Beyond. Less preset shapes. If you were to add lots of preset shape templates to Beyond, then you could do exactly the same Swami style abstracts.

If you put aside the pre-set shapes and thus the abstract form cues you can create, then I believe you really can't compare the two packages for features.



Well again there's a difference. LSX is aimed at hobbyists primarily although it's pro capable.

Beyond is aimed at Pro's although some deep pocketed hobbyists purchase it. It's not intended to be affordable to all but rather a high end pro package.

[colouredmirrorball]

Last time I looked practically every other commercial package does the same to protect their own created content ie cues.

There's also some argument over whether or not ILDA can store all the information various designers require it to.

I believe Fiesta, Moncha, Mamba, Phoenix etc all have their own cue formats.

Just because everyone is doing it doesn't mean it's the right thing to do! Not allowing users to export to a common format is just a cheap trick to lock them to your system. The argument that colour information gets lost is bullshit. That was true with the old 0 and 1 formats, but not with 4 and 5 which support full 8 bit RGB. Even if it's limited, then that should be the user's responsibility. Why would Pangolin need to decide it's not good enough for you? What if you are exporting to your TTL projector with SD card reader?

Ilda might be outdated but it's still the simplest way to implement art for an sd card reader which doesn't have much processing power. Or send it to a DAC. The 16 bit X/Y and 8 bit RGB values are easy to convert to the DAC bitrate.

A true vector format which describes curves rather than points requires more processing power. That's probably why ILDA will keep on existing, after all what you're sending to the laser are points. Not sure how the new digital amps are going to change that...

[colouredmirrorball]

I'm sure he won't mind me saying this, but the abstracts he creates are not true abstracts but cues that look like abstracts. He takes a cue then applies effects to the cue, to create a cue with abstract form / movement. He doesn't take abstract generators and create abstracts.

Wait what. I'm not following. If swami's shows are not abstracts, then what is? How do you define an abstract then? And what is a "cue", is it a list of frames? Sorry, I'm genuinely not getting what you're saying.

The difference between Beyond and LSX, is LSX comes with more base shape templates to which you can apply effects. That's the only limitation to Beyond. Less preset shapes. If you were to add lots of preset shape templates to Beyond, then you could do exactly the same Swami style abstracts.

There are no "preset" shapes, you can use ANY shape. Even ones that morph in real time.

If you put aside the pre-set shapes and thus the abstract form cues you can create, then I believe you really can't compare the two packages for features.

There are lots of differences. I hear the live features of Beyond are very nice (probably a lot better than LSX) and the 3D capabilities of Beyond Ultimate will be hard to beat for any software. But I don't think it's better for abstracts :P (which is just an impression since I don't have Beyond).

[absolom7691]

Just because everyone is doing it doesn't mean it's the right thing to do! Not allowing users to export to a common format is just a cheap trick to lock them to your system.

Well, to be fair, it doesn't lock me to their system. I mean, yeah, it could but why would I want a format other than what works best with my software? I will admit that I don't know for sure but I am willing to bet there is a lot more in the Beyond's file structure than just vector points and color information.

Now, I fly my Pangolin flag often but I will also admit that the inability to export to a common format can potentially hurt artists who sell their work instead of displaying it but I don't believe it is a ploy or a tactic to get the world to use Pangolin. I think it's just to preserve quality. When you see Pangolin performing, you are seeing it at the highest quality that it will ever be (obviously, quality as it pertains to the system, not the art created).

Swami, this is a bit off topic but, as LSX is open source and should you have the time to throw away, I wonder if you could write plugins to add some of your favorite effects as a preset with some sliders to point to math expressions, rotational events, clone copies.... make it a little more user friendly. You and CMB have the best grasp on the software (based on the tut threads). Having used LSX and Beyond, I would say that this is the defining difference (as abstracts go). One has a steep learning curve, the other does not and both can make some really pretty lights!

[swamidog]

Swami, this is a bit off topic but, as LSX is open source and should you have the time to throw away, I wonder if you could write plugins to add some of your favorite effects as a preset with some sliders to point to math expressions, rotational events, clone copies.... make it a little more user friendly. You and CMB have the best grasp on the software (based on the tut threads). Having used LSX and Beyond, I would say that this is the defining difference. One has a steep learning curve, the other does not and both can make some really pretty lights!

LSX isn't open source, but i have considered selling a cheap package of wipes, transitions and effects..

oh and there's also my not yet released SMS->LSX utility. i really need to get that packaged up for sale. it's only been gathering dust on my hard drive for two years.