Perceived brightness 12watt vs 3 watt

[Bradfo69]

Oh did i mention we do red 1 watt in 0.6mrd ?:

Perhaps once or twice.

[Sandstorm]

So less power but lower divergence gives equal brightness and better graphics versus higher power and higher divergence.

Oh come on, it starts again... no, you're not right UNLESS you put in numbers in your argument... cause your 1W 0.6mrad red might be overthrown with approx 2.5-3W 1.2mrad multimode. which is easier achievable? cheaper? stable? robust? it's up to everyone to decide on their selves

[edison]

The question was about the percieved brightness of 12 watt versus 3 watt. The question was not about what is the easiest way to get this kind of power, how stable it is or what the price difference is . If you want to know why china is cheap , drop the projector i would say If both projectors have the same power then the projector that has to lowest divergence will look brighter. But when comparing a 12W versus a 3 watt the 12W will win even if it has twice the divergence since you won,t get 4x the brightness of a 3 watt with half the divergence.
If this 12 watt for comparison is ordered from china its will be more likely a 1.6mrd divergence. If the question is based on what to buy below another reason to go low divergence:

When a guy calls and wants to pay 2000 euro for a logo projection for a week on a building at 100 meters and you can,t do it because the projector is 1.6mrd divergence you don,t get the job. Your not only loosing 2000 euro but also the customer as he will stick with the other guy who can do it from then on and that ads up when he wants to have it twice or 3 times a year. So buy the most power with the lowest divergence you can afford.

Here are the nr,s for red comparison if someone feels like to do some math

1 watt/637nm , beam at aperture : 3x3mm beam at 24.5m : 18mm round divergence: 0.61mrd (single mode)
1 watt/638nm beam at aperture : 4x5mm beam at 24.5m : 32mm x 13mm divergence : 1.1 x 0.32 mrd (multimode )
1 watt/637nm beam at aperture : 3.5x3.5 beam at 24.5m : 43 x 43 mm divergence : 1.6mrd (single mode Kvant, eightonlight etc)


Also projectors that are upgradable because they are bigger so there is space to ad an extra module for each color is the best choice. The market moves quickly that is for sure.

[flecom]

The question was about the percieved brightness of 12 watt versus 3 watt. The question was not about what is the easiest way to get this kind of power, how stable it is or what the price difference is . If you want to know why china is cheap , drop the projector i would say If both projectors have the same power then the projector that has to lowest divergence will look brighter. But when comparing a 12W versus a 3 watt the 12W will win even if it has twice the divergence since you won,t get 4x the brightness of a 3 watt with half the divergence.
If this 12 watt for comparison is ordered from china its will be more likely a 1.6mrd divergence. If the question is based on what to buy below another reason to go low divergence:

When a guy calls and wants to pay 2000 euro for a logo projection for a week on a building at 100 meters and you can,t do it because the projector is 1.6mrd divergence you don,t get the job. Your not only loosing 2000 euro but also the customer as he will stick with the other guy who can do it from then on and that ads up when he wants to have it twice or 3 times a year. So buy the most power with the lowest divergence you can afford.

Here are the nr,s for red comparison if someone feels like to do some math

1 watt/637nm , beam at aperture : 3x3mm beam at 24.5m : 18mm round divergence: 0.61mrd (single mode)
1 watt/638nm beam at aperture : 4x5mm beam at 24.5m : 32mm x 13mm divergence : 1.1 x 0.32 mrd (multimode )
1 watt/637nm beam at aperture : 3.5x3.5 beam at 24.5m : 43 x 43 mm divergence : 1.6mrd (single mode Kvant, eightonlight etc)


Also projectors that are upgradable because they are bigger so there is space to ad an extra module for each color is the best choice. The market moves quickly that is for sure.

chances are if you are in need of a 12W projector it's for beams, unless you need to project onto a mountain or something

additionally I don't think any clients have ever asked me the mRads of my projector

I have had no complaints and I have 650s! (the original flashlights) and a 642 pos kvant module that gives me a beam even bigger than the 650s!

Perhaps once or twice.

or 800^10^10 times lol

[Sandstorm]

edison, with all the respect to what you're doing (actually brightlights modules talk for themselves), I really dislike the way you're advertising your products in every thread possible, so.. I'm going to object to show there are more paths than one once again. If someone sees this discussion more annoying than informative simply tell me to stop

When a guy calls and wants to pay 2000 euro for a logo projection for a week on a building at 100 meters and you can,t do it because the projector is 1.6mrd divergence you don,t get the job. Your not only loosing 2000 euro but also the customer as he will stick with the other guy who can do it from then on and that ads up when he wants to have it twice or 3 times a year. So buy the most power with the lowest divergence you can afford.

What if that guy asks you for a logo @ 0.5km next year? You'll find out that even as low as 0.5mrad divergence can hardly make it.
If I got such a call I'd take projector with spatial filtering (that is the main parameter for displaying, if you want good graphics - filter your beams). And then I'd take 2 achromats and build a telescope after galvo mirrors, expanding beam as much as needed. Lets say 1.6mrad 4x4mm - expand it 10 times, you get the output of 40x40mm and 0.16mrad. What is more, you can output not collimated beam, but a little bit focusing to get even better results. Since the display is very far away, galvo movements are minimal, and you have minimal (or no) graphical mapping correction needed.

As you see, there are always more options possible. By the way, it's not just some theory, we actually did that once to display logo @ 400 meters with DPSS lasers

[edison]

I have had no complaints and I have 650s! (the original flashlights) and a 642 pos kvant module that gives me a beam even bigger than the 650s!

Flecom, stop wining and measure the spot at 24.5 meter. If the spot is 43mm you can,t get it better since that is 1.6mrd. If its worse open the module and check if one of the lenses is out of focus. If that is not the case the allignment is off. If you can,t do allignment trow it in a box and i can fix it. Next time buy a brightlight. Oops i did it again

What if that guy asks you for a logo @ 0.5km next year? You'll find out that even as low as 0.5mrad divergence can hardly make it.
If I got such a call I'd take projector with spatial filtering (that is the main parameter for displaying, if you want good graphics - filter your beams). And then I'd take 2 achromats and build a telescope after galvo mirrors, expanding beam as much as needed. Lets say 1.6mrad 4x4mm - expand it 10 times, you get the output of 40x40mm and 0.16mrad. What is more, you can output not collimated beam, but a little bit focusing to get even better results. Since the display is very far away, galvo movements are minimal, and you have minimal (or no) graphical mapping correction needed.

As you see, there are always more options possible. By the way, it's not just some theory, we actually did that once to display logo @ 400 meters with DPSS lasers

i,m convinced that low divergence is the way to go.You can buy arctos aswell, RTI or RGBLasersystems. We have build both multimode and single mode reds. The highend market doesn,t do multimode reds because its not practical. You need to do allot to get a clean beam and you need to do correction. Single mode reds is just a mather of stacking them. Stacking 4 beams is doable but beyond that its getting difficult and you needs an actual system. When the multimode reds came on the market everyone here at PL went for multimodes since combining 2 multimodes is easier and cheaper to get 1 watt red then stacking 6 single modes. Unless you have a good stackingsystem that is. Ideally you should own a mill for that. But multimodes are a comprimise, you need to stack less to get the same power but with a worse beamquallity. The low end market don,t care since they do beamshows only to they went with the cheapest option and that is multimodes. A year later the chinese catched up by copying brands like Kvant and rgblasersystem projectors and used multimode reds to keep the cost down. Now they do also single mode reds at 1.6mrd and can do things so cheap that DIY is not worth doing it anymore unless you want to have a high quallity low mrd projector and save more then half what an high-end brand cost.

At the end of the day its about what you can invest and that is determined what eventmanagers are willing to pay. That amount gets lower when the boy next door offers more power for the same or less amount. Its just a matter of months and the 10 watt level for a days hire with operator for less then 300usd is reached. Mark my words, accidents are about to happen

[White-Light]

Sorry for long post in advance. Please guys, everything is completely calculable

But it becomes a whole lot more difficult when dealing with pulsed lasers such as laserscopes and any error that results in excess spectral reflection or any accident involving scanning an audience area becomes far more critical and damaging.

I'm quite sure Norty and you are correct in so far as it can be done inside and overhead by someone who really knows what they're doing. The question really remains as to whether or not it should be done. I'm sure that's a hornets nest of opinions but with many leaning towards "no".

To my mind inside it's just an excess risk when CW lasers are available that will do the same job in a much safer manner. Look at the Russian incident...

[flecom]

Flecom, stop wining and measure the spot at 24.5 meter. If the spot is 43mm you can,t get it better since that is 1.6mrd. If its worse open the module and check if one of the lenses is out of focus. If that is not the case the allignment is off. If you can,t do allignment trow it in a box and i can fix it. Next time buy a brightlight. Oops i did it again

it's an alignment issue, which is why I won't do these multi-single mode setups again, no matter how good you get it you still have "gaps" between beams which I think negate any increased perceived brightness because of divergence since you really don't have one bright beam but 4 or more dimmer beams...

multi-mode setups are too fragile... these projectors get bounced around between gigs and things coming out of alignment is inevitable, but instead of easy to get to kinematic mounts they are buried inside a sealed aluminum box that would require an entire tear-down of my projector... ya no thanks, never again

so unless you can show a beam profile that's essentially continuous, and the drop the module onto concrete a good 10 or so times, and show the same beams, your modules are just as useless to me as the kvant

[sbk]

so unless you can show a beam profile that's essentially continuous, and the drop the module onto concrete a good 10 or so times, and show the same beams, your modules are just as useless to me as the kvant

Then you should buy one HB-Laser projector Have a look : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kixFJEZBLUg

Btw, I never had any alignment issue in several years with my multi-single-diodes modules... This may be due to the fact that all my optical baseplates are mounted on rubber bushing, but I'm pretty sure that with a good design the diodes will remain aligned forever.

[flecom]

This may be due to the fact that all my optical baseplates are mounted on rubber bushing

the entire optical plate or just the module's optical plate? I can't do my entire optical plate since it's part of the enclosure :\

but that is a good idea none the less