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Thread: Point optimisation: how to

  1. #41
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    There are already devices available now that hint of a logical direction for the future of laser display.

    If your source material is from a computer, then it is in the digital domain.

    At some point, before the scanner amps, that digital information needs to become analog. So it must be translated through a DAC.

    All laser content software and hardware relies on this model.

    A stream of samples is the common thread.

    Think about the good-old-days of analog modems. At first they were very expensive and complex. All the computer did was feed it a stream of raw binary data. It was entirely up to the modem and its own hardware to do the actual analog conversion and communication.

    Then they came out with "software" modems. There was very little hardware on the card. The driver did all the work and that driver could easily be updated without any need to change the hardware.

    A wave can be just a live stream of data moving though a computer. All one needs to do is imagine it sitting in storage with a header on it. That would make it a file.

    Making a wave is like a software modem. The method by which it is made is irrelevant. The hardware is a generic multi-channel DAC.

    James.
    Last edited by james; 01-20-2015 at 13:28.
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  2. #42
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    So, what good is a wave file when dealing with USB or Ethernet based DACs and the show content is dynamically created by some sort of abstract generated keyed by different time settings? Seems like in that case the logical show format would be a set of time parameters that have associated abstract generator settings. Or perhaps at time X, the show gathers content from a live camera feed that is converted to laser display, and what if the show also include video content? What if the show consists of 10 laser projectors and 20 DMX fixtures? How do you manage that with a wave file?

  3. #43
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    There is no fast rule that says all waves need to be time optimized. They could just as easily be stripped-out points.

    The size difference in a stripped wave vs. a stripped ILDA file is negligible.

    Like I said before, there is nothing that can be stored in an ILDA file that cannot be stored in a formatted wave (no loss of data).

    The reverse cannot be said.

    Actually, there are no palettes in a wave file. It is all RGB data. But that can be matched to a palette, if it came from one.

    If you want to skip the step of having to strip out all the optimization and repeated frames, then your software could have a function to open a wave file and do the stripping on-the-fly.

    Once it is in your application's memory space, it's all the same thing.

    James.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnYayas View Post
    How do you manage that with a wave file?
    You don't.

    But at some point before the scanner amps...... It's a stream of samples.

    It only becomes a file when you save it.

    What might be thought of as far too complex for one computer to handle now will be no-big-deal tomorrow.
    Last edited by james; 01-20-2015 at 14:10.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    You don't.

    But at some point before the scanner amps...... It's a stream of samples.

    It only becomes a file when you save it.

    What might be thought of as far too complex for one computer to handle now will be no-big-deal tomorrow.
    Again, I am asking what would the purpose of a wave file be in my scenario? What I depicted is a pretty realistic scenario. One computer, controlling 10 DACs and a DMX controller attached to 10 DMX fixtures and also displaying video as the show plays. Spaghetti can do this today. In this scenario, how will a WAV file make things better for me? I'm seriously asking because I don't get the value of the WAV file beyond just simple ADAT style playback.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post

    Like I said before, there is nothing that can be stored in an ILDA file that cannot be stored in a formatted wave (no loss of data).
    Show software doesn't really use ILDA files for playback. It uses them to import content. So, there is no desire to store show content in an ILDA file. I suppose you can use an WAV file in place of an ILDA file but there really is no advantage to it. It's basically the same thing. 6 of one things, 1/2 dozen of the other. When talking about those little SD card players that load an ILDA file and play it back, it might be cool in that case to put a WAV file on it instead and let the thing be a self contained show player with music. You could slap it in you front yard at Christmas time. But, if you want to have one of those wild and crazy Christmas displays with 30 light chasing fixtures,a snow machine, a couple laser projectors, etc, the wave file falls short.

  7. #47
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    I'm not saying that the answer to everything is a wave file.

    I'm saying that the wave file format is a much more robust and feature rich way to exchange frame content.

    It has all kinds of room for meta data and you can add to that any way you want.

    It answers the need for storing real, sensible time-oriented optimizations and the parameters used to achieve them; which is the topic of this thread.

    Plus it is possible to play that wave through any generic multi-channel sound device (and even some current laser DACs) and get a show.

    But I would say that ultimately everything could be done in software with the end result being a collection of (real-time) streams that go straight to dumb-DACs.

    Formatting those streams with sub-coded meta data would have no purpose, unless they were being recorded.

    In old-school UNIX thinking, a file is any device that provides and/or consumes ordered data. That makes every DAC a kind of file.

    James.
    Last edited by james; 01-20-2015 at 16:12.
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    I'm not saying that the answer to everything is a wave file.

    I'm saying that the wave file format is a much more robust and feature rich way to exchange frame content.
    I don't agree. My point of view is that wave files were created when memory and storage space were expensive and they created a format that was as tight as possible with some avenues for expansion. Those avenues aren't very user friendly. I don't consider them to be robust or feature rich at all. That is my opinion. I accept that in your opinion WAV files are robust and feature rich but I won't accept it as fact and I would anticipate that you would get a lot of disagreement from others as well.[/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    It has all kinds of room for meta data and you can add to that any way you want.
    No, it doesn't. I know you can add metadata but you can't just willy nilly add whatever you want. It has to fit a format that isn't convenient at all. Besides, the ILDA file also allows adding meta data by the way of custom formats. You can create a custom format all you want. If that is what you really want to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    It answers the need for storing real, sensible time-oriented optimizations and the parameters used to achieve them; which is the topic of this thread.
    It answers your need. It doesn't answer my need. It doesn't even come close in my opinion. It does alright for a pre-canned single projector stream but single projector laser shows but when you get into the realm of multi-device shows it is no longer useful for streaming shows. Yes, you can use it for transporting content but there are far better ways of doing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    Plus it is possible to play that wave through any generic multi-channel sound device (and even some current laser DACs) and get a show.
    Yes, I can play a laser wave file with my computer and I'll hear a bunch of noise. But, I can't plug my laser projector into my computer. I can't go to Best Buy and buy a sound card that will accept my laser project. In fact, I know of no generic sound devices that have an ILDA plug on them. Once you add a correct amp and start ripping capacitors off of sound cards they really aren't generic anymore. I can hook up little amp and a speaker to my Moncha DAC and by sending correctly formatted ILDA files to it I can hear music. That doesn't mean I should start using ILDA files as a way of storing music does it?



    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    But I would say that ultimately everything could be done in software with the end result being a collection of (real-time) streams that go straight to dumb-DACs.

    Formatting those streams with sub-coded meta data would have no purpose, unless they were being recorded.
    I don't know what you are saying here.


    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    In old-school UNIX thinking, a file is any device that either provides and/or consumes ordered data. That makes every DAC a kind of file.
    No it doesn't. Underneath the "file" layer is a ton of code that doesn't act anything like the real file system. What you said makes as much sense as saying every piece of software is a kind of keyboard and mouse. Because, after all, everyone uses the mouse and keyboard to interact with that software, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    James.
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  9. #49
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    Oh good grief.

    I think we have been at this exact same impasse in conversation at least once before; probably many times.

    I'm not absolutely positive, but I think digital audio recording predates the wave file format and even sound cards for that matter.

    Microsoft just put a header on a bunch of samples and called it a file format.

    Fortunately they did it with some forethought. They used a chunk based system that could easily be extended in the future.

    It has nothing to do with the cost of RAM or storage, as a matter of fact your assertion is contrary to that notion. Wave files are notoriously large.

    What makes a wave a wave is that it is literal data. No mater how hard you try, you can not write a file that "describes" a recording of an actual audio event and expect to recover that same audio event. But you can record it as a literal string of samples.

    Wave files are not "tight". FLAC files are compressed with no data loss and MP3 files are even "tighter" with some loss of signal quality. But all of these file types are still literal data. They are not descriptive.

    How easy or complex it is to read or write it is irrelevant. It's been done to death. If you really wanted to you could use the code that already exists in LaserBoy.

    You should, at least, "accept the fact" that it is already done and working in LaserBoy.

    Who said anything about "willy-nilly"? I thought we were having an intelligent conversation here.

    And YES it is a fact that the wave file format can be extended ad-infinitum by adding chunks to the header and that will not break any properly coded wave file reader.

    In UNIX thinking a printed piece of paper is a file. A 100 year old photograph is a file. A mouse, keyboard, display adapter, printer, document scanner, sound card, modem, fax, etc... is a file. No one cares about the underlying driver. A file is a device that produces and / or consumes ordered data. A DAC is a digital end-point that consumes ordered data.

    So there is no commercially made sound card laser DAC. Who cares? There certainly could be! I can sell you one that is done and ready to use. And it still functions just like any other generic multi-channel sound device.

    I don't remove any caps. I just tack wires onto the signal sides of the output caps. They are still there and they are still in series with fully functional audio output jacks.

    ILDA is not a time based laser vector art format. Wave is. That is a fact.

    And NO. You cannot add anything you want to the ILDA format spec. If you do it is no longer an ILDA file and no other app will be able to make any use of it.

    I do not believe that a laser DAC needs to do anything more than DAC! It is certainly possible to do all of the rendering and streaming in software. It might not work with currently used professional lighting systems and communications protocols, but again.... who cares?

    Digital audio workstation software that deals with dozens of individual audio tracks in different sample rates and midi files all together in the same app was not possible many years ago. But intel designed new extensions to the definition of CPU architecture specifically for advanced DSP and streaming. Remember MMX? No one even thinks about that anymore. It's just a given.

    James.
    Last edited by james; 01-20-2015 at 17:59.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    Oh good grief.
    No need for the Peanuts treatment.

    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    I think we have been at this exact same impasse in conversation at least once before; probably many times.
    If so, then you have obviously still failed to prove your point.

    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    I'm not absolutely positive, but I think digital audio recording predates the wave file format and even sound cards for that matter.
    Of course it does, and so did vinyl records.

    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    Microsoft just put a header on a bunch of samples and called it a file format.
    Waveform data. Specifically sound wave data. That's why they call it a WAV file. It was intended for audio.

    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    Fortunately they did it with some forethought. They used a chunk based system that could easily be extended in the future.
    Sure, they figured didn't expect it to be two 16bit channels forever. I can't speak for whoever invented it but I would imagine they only intended it to contain audio data. You don't see them attempting to put video files in wav files. You don't see them attempting to save Word documents in wave format (they could, each character or control code could be a sample). In fact, you don't see the inventors using it for anything but for storing audio. You're using it in a manner that was never intended. There are other data structures than can easily contain the same data. Why not use a compressed FLAC file?

    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    It has nothing to do with the cost of RAM or storage, as a matter of fact your assertion is contrary to that notion. Wave files are notoriously large.
    Yes, they are indeed large and that is why they made sure to pack them as much as possible. They could just as well have expressed each 16bit sample using a 4 byte integer which would have allowed the exact same structures to be used for up to 32 bit samples. But instead, they identify the size up front and pack the data to that size.[QUOTE=james;307655]

    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    What makes a wave a wave is that it is literal data. No mater how hard you try, you can not write a file that "describes" a recording of an actual audio event and expect to recover that same audio event. But you can record it as a literal string of samples.
    What about a FLAC file? ie Lossless compression? It isn't simply a string of samples. I'm not even sure what your point is to be honest.

    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    How easy or complex it is to read or write it is irrelevant. It's been done to death. If you really wanted to you could use the code that already exists in LaserBoy.
    What I was referring to is the fact that you have to shoehorn your data into the file.

    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    You should, at least, "accept the fact" that it is already done and working in LaserBoy.
    Yes, it's been done. Microsoft Bob was also done.

    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    Who said anything about "willy-nilly"? I thought we were having an intelligent conversation here.
    Well, when you say things like "you can add as much metadata as you want however you want" then you're painting things with a pretty broad brush and that isn't how it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    And YES it is a fact that the wave file format can be extended ad-infinitum by adding chunks to the header and that will not break any properly coded wave file reader.
    Just like you can add formats to the ILDA file (eg 6 through 65535 or whatever) and any properly coded ILDA file reader would ignore that sections.

    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    In UNIX thinking a printed piece of paper is a file. A 100 year old photograph is a file. A mouse, keyboard, screen, printer, scanner, sound card, modem, fax, etc... is a file. No one cares about the underlying driver. A file is a device that produces and / or consumes ordered data. A DAC is a digital end-point that consumes ordered data.
    No, you're wrong. All of those things are wrapped to appear as files. The code for each under the covers is very unique. No one cares about the underlying driver? UH, I think the people writing the drivers care!

    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    So there is no commercially made sound card laser DAC. Who cares? There certainly could be! I can sell you one that is done and ready to use. And it still functions just like any other generic multi-channel sound device.
    Sure, it functions like a sound card. But it doesn't function like a ILDA DAC. Which is a bit of a problem that most people have given up o

    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    I don't remove any caps. I just tack wires onto the signal sides of the output caps. They are still there and they are still in series with fully functional audio output jacks.
    That's good.

    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    ILDA is not a time based laser vector art format. Wave is. That is a fact.
    ILDA can be time based. There are plenty of shows in ILDA format where the points are at a constant rate. Just because it isn't inherent in the format doesn't make it impossible. And accordingly, I would say that your LaserBoy wavs aren't necessary time based. Especially when you talk about stripping points.

    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    And NO. You cannot add anything you want to the ILDA format spec. If you do it is no longer an ILDA file and no other app will be able to make any use of it.
    You can. That is what the different format codes are for. You know that.


    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    James.
    Gary

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