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Thread: Point optimisation: how to

  1. #51
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    It is my understanding that a thread reply must be at least 15 characters to be accepted, so I had to add this preamble to what I really want to say:

    LOL!

    Dean

  2. #52
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    I certainly did not invent the idea of using an ADAT machine to record laser shows.

    I just extended the idea and wrote an application that knows how to convert frame sets directly to wave files and back again using only software.

    ADAT machines were also originally made for audio.

    You're right. I have failed to convince YOU; not everyone else.

    It seems like you're reading my posts without even trying to understand them. You're only looking for things to argue about. And your arguments don't make any sense.

    Sure you could save the binary data of a word document as samples of a wave file. But what would you do with that?

    I'm not saving anything in a wave file that is not intended to be either legally ignored or read and played back by any wave player through any sound card in any OS for the purpose of reproducing a set of analog signals.

    The parts that are legally ignored lend a lot of information to the data that is stored in the samples.

    There is nothing out of the ordinary about that at all.

    And there is such a thing as 32 bit sample waves, as well as 8 bit, 12 bit, 16 bit, 24 bit signed integer and even float. All of that is because the wave file format was designed to be flexible enough to support that. ILDA data is signed 16 bit integer data. There is an exact match for that in the signed 16 bit version of a wave file.

    Your statement that an ILDA file can have any number of added sections is not true. If you add anything, the file is no longer an ILDA file. The only way an ILDA file reader could possibly deal with it would be to read through every byte of the file looking for "ILDA\0\0\0" followed by a recognizable section header number. That is not the same as knowing ahead of time where to find a file offset and jumping over a pre-calculated number of bytes in the file in one move. Plus, good luck getting your idea into the official ILDA spec document!

    Looking for "ILDA..." is a way to overcome errors in an ILDA file. Jumping over an offset in a wave file is absolutely part of the specification for the wave file format.

    If I'm not mistaken, the EtherDream, which is not at all a sound card and is totally a laser DAC, can play wave files.

    There must be some sense in that.

    It makes sense in the present time to be able to make use of ADAT recorded information by transcribing it to wave files and storing it on hard drives.

    There doesn't have to be a way to go directly from a frame set to a wave file using only software. But there is one. And it works! And those waves can be converted back into laser vector art. So why not make the most of it?

    The printing press was originally invented to mass produce The Bible. Fortunately, humanity found other uses for it as well.

    Cross-purpose uses for inventions are more the rule than the exception.

    Get it? "Bible"... "mass" produce... "Cross"-purpose....

    Jesus! Some people just have no sense of humor.

    James.
    Last edited by james; 01-20-2015 at 22:15.
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  3. #53
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    I don't think there is anything wrong with storing ADAT files in a wav file. It makes sense there. Well, actually it makes more sense to store them as FLAC files. If you convert your WAV file to FLAC and back to WAV is your custom data preserved?

    But after that I really don't see a purpose to your rants about saving everything as wave files when 99% of the time the target is some USB device. A wave files doesn't offer anything attractive in the non-streaming cases. There is little motivation to do it just because "LaserBoy!" does it. If you could demonstrate some reasons for it I would listen. But, "just because you can" is not a good reason. I created my own file format for storing streaming laser shows. It contains datas for multiple projectors, DMX fixtures, and TTL fixtures. And is compressed. It does exactly what I want. Demonstrate how your format can do that without a lot of hodge podge and we'll talk.

  4. #54
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    Way to go Gary!

    I've stated the reason multiple times in this conversation and you've missed it every time.

    Wave is a time oriented format.

    Optimization is a time oriented state of data.

    Wave files can properly store optimization.

    ILDA files cannot.

    Even if you save your ILDA files with optimization, there is no samples_per_second. So there is no time quantum. It's a hack not directly connected to time. And there are no other data elements in an ILDA file to give you any clue about how the data was optimized (or not).

    CMB asked for a way to store and share optimization settings in a file. LaserBoy has been doing just exactly that for over a decade.

    You downloaded my Earth animation and, even though I stated it in the post, you missed the fact that it is a point-stripped ILDA file and tried to project it as-is anyway. Too bad there is nothing in the file to tell you that!

    James.
    Last edited by james; 01-21-2015 at 09:59.
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  5. #55
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    No. You cannot create an ILDA format 6!

    Only ILDA can create a new ILDA file section.

    Trust me. I know all about that stuff.

    While you're at it, why not tell them to fix format 3! ?

    What would you do if you did create a format 6 with all of that stuff and then ILDA came out with a completely different definition for format 6?

    You could take my wave format and there is no reason why you wouldn't know how to read it. It is documented and you have a working example application with source code. Or you could just ask me.

    Plus, no one needs to know anything about my additions to the wave file format, because they do not in any way break the standard definition of a wave file. They open and play in any properly coded wave editor or player, as-is.

    I am not redefining the wave file standard. I'm just extending it within the rules.

    Give me your address so I can send you a crayon and a taco.

    James.
    Last edited by james; 01-21-2015 at 21:18.
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    No. You cannot create an ILDA format 6!

    Only ILDA can create a new ILDA file section.

    Trust me. I know all about that stuff.

    While you're at it, why not tell them to fix format 3! ?

    What would you do it you did create a format 6 with all of that stuff and then ILDA came out with a completely different definition for format 6?

    You could take my wave format and there is no reason why you wouldn't know how to read it. It is documented and you have a working example application with source code. Or you could just ask me.

    Plus, no one needs to know anything about my additions to the wave file format, because they do not in any way break the standard definition of a wave file. They open and play in any properly coded wave editor or player, as-is.

    James.
    I can create an ILDA format 6 if I want too. It might not be formally adopted by ILDA but there is no reason that several different entities couldn't use it. There are no software police. The ILDA standard states that unrecognized formats should be ignored so any ILDA reader that follows the standard wouldn't be harmed. In practice, we know that isn't so, but I am following your logic that your wave files don't break any properly coded wave player.

  7. #57
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    No. You're not following my or any other logic.

    Looking at every byte in an ILDA file to find "ILDA..." is a BAD HACK for the purpose of skipping over errors.

    It is just proof that the ILDA file format was poorly designed in the first place. It is not extendable.

    Knowing exactly where to look in a wave header to find a file offset to jump to is part of the wave standard; because it was properly designed to be extendable.

    Do you remember how upset you were with me when you wrote that part of Spaghetti that creates thumbnails of ILDA files in a directory, only to find that when you pointed it at the LaserBoy ild directory it choked and blew up because I include an example of an ILDA file with a format 3 section that uses the same 32 byte header as all the other ILDA sections?

    Whatever YOU add to ILDA is NOT ILDA!

    James.
    Last edited by james; 01-21-2015 at 13:32.
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  8. #58
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    If we follow your logic about skipping over unrecognizable ILDA files sections, then format 3 is obviously the correct and only way to add 24 bit RGB color data to an ILDA file.

    If you can't read format 3 then you just skip it. At least you would still find the format 0 or 1 vector image that follows it. If you skip format 4 or 5 you get NOTHING.

    James.
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  9. #59
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    Quote:
    Looking at every byte in an ILDA file to find "ILDA..." is a BAD HACK for the purpose of skipping over errors.
    End Quote

    The ILDA format was designed when Christ was still a Carpenter. It was designed to be really BACKWARD compatible as well as forward compatible. You want a Z80 or 68000 with perhaps 32K of memory to have an infinite pointer when pulling data off an old disk format or EPROM? Bus transfer back then was slow, still.

    Wow, Shameless knock on the work of quite a few pioneer artists with limited resources who had limitations on their coding.

    One Neat thing about that word ILDA being embedded, it allows the simplest of processors to read the file. Programmers to this day are taking advantage of that simple quirk in the format. Go to LPF and see a simple ATMEGA8 or MEGA16 being able to read a file and scan it. Mega8 has a mere 32 BYTES of RAM.

    A bunch of guys got together at a meeting and sketched out a format based on commonalities of existing work at their companies. Their vision has lasted already for almost two decades. It left room for expansion. Its worked.

    Look at the "BAD HACK" from the other point of view. It provides a locator in the file for the process to skip to if there is a storage media problem or a write error. Redundancy and simplicity = GOOD.

    More "revisionist" history.

    Steve
    Last edited by mixedgas; 01-21-2015 at 14:11.
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  10. #60
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    Microsoft released the wave file format in 1991.

    It is based on chunk file formats that predate it by many years.

    File offsets go back to the days of sequential storage tape drives, FORTRAN and paper punch cards.

    When was ILDA first released?

    Proper file format design is not based on any resource limitations.

    No one would say that the ILDA format is good or future proof; not even ILDA.

    James.
    Last edited by james; 01-21-2015 at 14:05.
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