Pesident Clinton

[james]

James,
Give it up. Despite all your deviousness we all know your trying to change the subject.

I thought it was funny.

Anyway, I also thought that conversation about politics or religion was strictly forbidden on this forum.

I guess this thread puts that idea to rest.

James.

[ghosttrain]

I guess you can troll away if you live in the US, after all this isn't a subject that an average american will be affected by in the near future at least. Different story for the rest of the world though. Sometimes I kind of wish US would get a slap in the face. And I don't mean a terrorist attack, people will forget that after a week. Just something to get your lazy selfish asses off of your computer chair and at least for you to pretend that you care.

[swamidog]

the yoghurt of cruz compels you.

[james]

Just something to get your lazy selfish asses off of your computer chair and at least for you to pretend that you care.

I can assure you there are millions of us who care.

What do you suggest we do?

James.

[ghosttrain]

All I'm saying is trolling about an important subject like this doesn't give the impression that the troll cares, quite the opposite. I can't know about the rest but my friends have lost lives because of the stupid foreign policy of US, not even talking about what happens inside US.

As to what you should do all I can suggest is check the data provided in this thread which proves all the nonsense propaganda wrong, it might just change your opinion which might change what happens in the whole world the next 4 years.

One more bullshit debunked:

VIDEO:


AUDIO:


Case closed.

[TechJunkie]

Law is, surprise, surprise, usually written form of the moral views majority of a country agree on. Law *is* morality.

Ahhh, to be young again.

Laws are paid for in either blood or money. Morality has no place in this world anymore. Its been that way for a long time.

My personal view is that I'm pro life, I would never kill a child I produced. Thats why I have no children at age 49. But I also dont think I have the right to tell anyone what to do with their own body, so I'm politically pro choice. The reality of abortion is that its going to happen if its legal, or not. Its been this way forever, that will never change. So its a better choice to make it legal. Abortion keeps the population thinned. Thus less stress on the planet, less starving people, less diseases like the ones from over populated countries like India, and China, less fatherless children, less children in an already grossly over burdened child welfare system, less babies from women that got pregnant due to rape, incest, drug addicted babies, unwanted teenage pregnancy, ect, ect, ect. The list is near infinite. If the only argument on the other side is its immoral then think about this one. Next time you jerk off think of how many potential babies you're killing. Your baby batter is alive you know. In a moral society you'd only be releasing your spunk when your WIFE was ovulating. But we all know how that one goes... Right fellas? I also think its kind of silly that a bunch of men are debating woman's rights, yet again. That's been going on forever too. Do you really think women want to get abortions? There are usually good reason behind them. Remember its the men that control the sperm flow. Women dont get ANYTHING out of you finishing inside them. Except babies.

Sorry, my zipper slipped open...

[ghosttrain]

Ahhh, to be young again.

Laws are paid for in either blood or money. Morality has no place in this world anymore. Its been that way for a long time.

What does that have anything to do with the part of my post you quoted?
Law is the subjective morality of the legislative bodies, their moral views which may or may not be the same as the people's, written down on paper and enforced. That's just basic jurisprudence.
You don't seem to differentiate between "objective morality" (which you talk about here and has not been shown to exist) and "subjective morality".
Also, why? You only made a statement without providing any info. "It's bad, it's been bad for a long time". So? What does that prove or mean?

My personal view is that I'm pro life, I would never kill a child I produced. Thats why I have no children at age 49. But I also dont think I have the right to tell anyone what to do with their own body, so I'm politically pro choice.

Well you are morally inconsistent.
In one case you agree that there is life taken and in another not affecting you you don't see any life, only someone's body.

The reality of abortion is that its going to happen if its legal, or not.

Same could be said about anything illegal. Should murder and rape be legalized?

Its been this way forever, that will never change.

Just because something has been historically one way doesn't mean it has to be that way or can't be any other way. That's the fallacy people have used for slavery and few other things in the past. Human trafficking (aka illegal slavery) exists today, sure, but nowhere as common.

For the same reason the idea that law has always been corrupt therefore it always will be is illogical.

So its a better choice to make it legal.

Because of the above reason, no.
There are many other reasons why one can be for it, but your reason is weak, it's a logical fallacy.

Abortion keeps the population thinned.

So does murder, or war.

Thus less stress on the planet, less starving people,

Kill people to save people. Brilliant.

less fatherless children

You're one heck of a die hard negative utilitarian:
"How to prevent suffering?"
"Kill the sufferer."

If the only argument on the other side is its immoral then think about this one. Next time you jerk off think of how many potential babies you're killing. Your baby batter is alive you know.

I've heard this argument before, and it just doesn't work for christians. For jainists maybe, but who's jainist here?

Also, this is also illogical.
It's the good old "you can't beat them all so you might as well quit". The point is you reduce "bad things". Just because you can't eliminate it completely doesn't mean there's no practical or moral sense in reduction. I honestly don't care about sperm and a fetus at early stages of development because for me they are not a moral agent (conscious/sentient). Just saying this logic is flawed.

I also think its kind of silly that a bunch of men are debating woman's rights, yet again. That's been going on forever too.

First of all, men can debate woman's rights. It's ironically sexist to assume just because he/she belongs to a group he/she can't decide on issues affecting another group. Should there be separate legislative bodies for people of different age, sex, race, ethnicity?

Secondly, this is a "woman's right" only and only if you believe the fetus is not human. If you do (pro life) it's a humans rights issue.

Do you really think women want to get abortions?

Well, yeah. it can be a dilemma, but a choice is a choice. If viewed from a pro life perspective you're choosing to kill a human to avoid burden. Maybe it's a very big burden, but come on, you're killing a human, you can't have a baseless exception to the idea of the human life being of outmost moral value.

[planters]

Default

Quote Originally Posted by planters View Post
James,
Give it up. Despite all your deviousness we all know your trying to change the subject.
I thought it was funny.

Of course it was. And, my reply was intended to emphasize that, you devious rogue!

I'm not Catholic either, but Francis is known for washing prisoners feet, getting close to common people and would choke at the thought of being carried around on a throne

I know and that is noble. He should not have leveraged that noble position to criticize Trump.

Now, he may have done this. I really don't know, but to keep things in perspective can we locate a PROPORTIONAL criticism of the brutal assholes in Cuba?

Trolling is unethical. It's like marching into a fine restaurant in a sweaty tee shirt, picking your nose and insulting the other patrons. People who are taking the time to post want to convince and educate. They want to gain validation of their positions and they seek evidence to prove what they believe and they share this. Trolling, just to get a rise out of someone or take a cheap shot is selfish.

I can assure you there are millions of us who care.

What do you suggest we do?

Add to the discussion. This absolutely does not mean to agree where you do not, but to enrich the argument.

My positions and arguments here are not my primary platform. I discuss these issues at work and in meetings daily. I bring some of that here and take some of what I learn here and pursue it.

Laws are paid for in either blood or money. Morality has no place in this world anymore. Its been that way for a long time.

Yes, morality does and this is an extremely important point. We have met and you once asked me if there was anything that an individual can do and although we had too little time to dig into it, I thought you were interested in the possibilities; I certainly was.

[james]

OK. I guess I should apologize for busting in with a half-ass post like the one I made. But WOW there is some serious shit going on in this thread!

It's all about US foreign policy and how it effects other REAL people on this forum, religion, ... AND ... abortion?

That's heavy.

I guess I'm in a position where I believe that my own personal interests as a web "personality" are better served if no one knows where I stand.

That being said.....

I am a 51 YO gay man who is actually married in the USA.

You might think you can guess the rest.

Maybe.

James.

[planters]

OK. I guess I should apologize for busting in with a half-ass post like the one I made. But WOW there is some serious shit going on in this thread!

Hey, no worry, but of course there is.

It's all about US foreign policy and how it effects other REAL people on this forum, religion, ... AND ... abortion?

I can take a pass on a discussion about the merits of a dongle or who is better Batman or Superman. Can you imagine where civilization would be if a significant fraction of the population found this thread worth reading and participating in?

Anyway, I just spent 3 1/2 hours replacing a single mirror in a laser and the whole thing now works worse than before I started. What a waste. So, what avenues are there to distract from the daily grind? How about the end of Western civilization? Perfect!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEuX...&nohtml5=False