Quickshow and Beyond 3.0 - WHEN?

[swamidog]

preach on brother. that was beautiful.

-- CRITICAL (MARXIST) THINKING ALERT --

I encourage people to read this with an open mind:

Bill, at first it seems like you are advocating for people because you want there to be jobs for everyone, but in reality you are actually auguring against people and merely upholding the STATIST QUO (see what I did there...). By arguing to keep these low end jobs, you are arguing to maintain the exploitation of people's labour to make a profit. Most low end jobs are created by the Capitalist state. Someone might ask what about jobs that are essential to our society like garbage collection and sewage processing? There are enough people in our society to rotate through these positions so that no one person has to devote their life to working them. If you say this would never work, you can look to the US justice system and jury duty for an example. No one is a professional juror, nor should they be. I feel the same way about "low end" jobs. By forcing individuals to work shitty monotonous jobs, we are in effect create a caste system, poverty and inequality. Every time we buy a product that capitalizes on other people's labour, we are upholding the status quo of inequality. I am not saying that there is an easy solution, I just want to make people aware that even every time that they go to the grocery store to buy the food they need to eat they are supporting poverty and inequality. Also, by taking away these individuals time we are eliminating some of the possibility to seek their passion and manifest in the world what they and only they can do.

SHITTY JOBS DON'T BENEFIT HUMANITY. PERIOD. Sorry, but the "I had a shitty job so others should too" doesn't hold water. Just because you found your shitty job to be rewarding and essential to your development, it doesn't mean that others feel the same way. I have had plenty of shitty jobs and looking back, I would have rather not wasted my time with them. An argument could be made that I am not as successful as you and the reason is because I don't value my experience at my shitty jobs, but I think I am doing well and wouldn't want to live your life in the slightest.



We have created a world in which people can lose their job to a computer or a robot. TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILITY. You vote with your dollars. As a society, we favor efficiency and accumulation, but it must come at a sacrifice. People get so mired in their personal realty and story they lose the power to use their imagination to create any type of life they could dream of. I can understand why losing your job to a robot is demoralizing, but it can be viewed as a blessing. Now these people will have time to follow their passion and bring real value into this world. Isn't this the Capitalist (American?) Dream? Making money doing the thing you love? Why do we as a society want to pigeon hole these people into dead end jobs?

Living off the government? You mean living off of my tax dollars. I for one would love young people and people displaced by technology to live off my tax dollars so that they may find their truth and their passion and live that every single day of their lives, rather than find some other shitty job that adds no value. Not only will their lives be richer, but I believe mine will be too. We seem to forget that we are all in this game of life together, when we actually start acting like it?

IDLE MINDS ARE ANTI-CAPITALIST. We have been taught that anything anti-capitalist is evil (the devil), but when we people actually think for themselves and see that money is the root of all that is evil (Let's create wars so we can sell guns to both sides for a profit!). Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I think this is by design. Breeding self centered and self destructive workers to ensure that profit will be made. Also, who is it that really have idle minds? The people that struggle every day to make barely enough money to feed themselves and their children or the people that make money by having money and exploiting labour?



Here is all you need to know from a formal education: You are capable of doing anything you set your mind to, it will just take work. If you are not a white male, it will take more work, but anything is still possible.

-Sal

[Pangolin]

If you look throughout history, you will find the POVERTY is the norm. Prosperity is the exception. What America created insomuch as applying the capitalist system and lifting so many people out of poverty is the exception. If Marx had such good ideas, why didn't it work for Russia or anywhere else? And if capitalism is so bad and communism (in its many forms) is so good, why is China moving toward capitalism (and kicking butt in the process)?

I think you took my "shit job" comment wrong. When I say "shit job" I actually mean an entry-level position like bagging groceries at a grocery store. I mean jobs where you get paid the minimum wage, but where you learn about what it means to work at a company work with co-workers and customers, work with bosses, etc. All of this is valuable, and I'm sorry to need to inform you that yes -- absolutely -- this is necessary!!!

Dude, I hire people! I run a company! I more than many people reading this know what it's like to interview people who have had these jobs and others who have not!

You also seemed to have a problem with one human being (or some evil corporation) making money off of the labor of another human being. If we had machines, then the one human being wouldn't have to make money off the other. To any extent that this is true at all -- then what are the now unemployed humans going to do? Get paid by the government for the rest of their lives? How valuable is that -- to them or to society?

If you study what makes people happy, one of the things you learn is that WORK MAKES PEOPLE HAPPY!!! Doing things that are worthwhile -- either to them or to society makes people happy. Accomplishing things. Feeling the satisfaction of completing a job. That's what makes people happy! Sitting at home and collecting welfare isn't going to make people happy. (If you're not happy in your job, I'm sorry to hear that, but don't try too ruin it for the folks who are!!)

And if you can find me examples of people anywhere who get paid by the government (yes, ultimately by the people who are still working and paying taxes), where those people are pursuing their passions and living life to the fullest instead of "being enslaved by evil corporations", let's see it.

Keep in mind that the non-profit industries get their money from for-profit industries! Government creates nothing, it gets all of its funding from for-profit organizations. *SOMEONE* has got to make a profit, or nothing works...

And as a final word, I for one actually hire people AT ZERO PROFIT!! So, for example, sometimes when we need parts sorted, etc. we hire people to do that work at no profit for us. I'd rather have people (who might otherwise be sitting at home playing video games) do it than machines. And when I talk to people on the other end of the phone lines at the airline, and they tell me I can book my flight online for free, or pay them $25 to do it, I gladly pay every time. I want to keep humans in business. I want to keep humans at work. This has nothing to do with me wanting people enslaved. It has to do with me wanting to keep people happy, learning, building their lives.

Given what you wrote above I feel bad for you Sal, I really do. But the world needs things. It also needs leaders like Steve Jobs, Elon Musk and even me. And we need people to work with us to accomplish great things for the world. At our companies, people are happy to have the jobs we offer. They're not "enslaved" by us... This is evident in the long line of people looking for jobs at Apple, Tesla, SpaceX and even Pangolin.

And if you think machines are so great and they're finally the answer that the world has been looking for -- so that teenagers can stay home and "pursue their passions" (for example playing video games) instead of getting an entry-level job and learning about themselves and the world at large, who the hell is going to design and build those machines in the first place?

Bill

[JohnYayas]

Someone might ask what about jobs that are essential to our society like garbage collection and sewage processing? There are enough people in our society to rotate through these positions so that no one person has to devote their life to working them. If you say this would never work, you can look to the US justice system and jury duty for an example. No one is a professional juror, nor should they be.

What happens if the people whose turn it is to pick up the garbage refuse to do so? Is there going to be a job lottery system where you pick a number out of a hat and either have to clean a toilet or flip hamburgers? What happens afterwards when someone with low life skills doesn't have a job because the lottery workers are replacing him? Forcing everyone to do a job forces those out who would want to do it all their live (or had no choice). That's the same problem that is created by automation.

[discothefunkyhippo]

If you look throughout history, you will find the POVERTY is the norm. Prosperity is the exception. What America created insomuch as applying the capitalist system and lifting so many people out of poverty is the exception. If Marx had such good ideas, why didn't it work for Russia or anywhere else? And if capitalism is so bad and communism (in its many forms) is so good, why is China moving toward capitalism (and kicking butt in the process)?

I am not a proponent of communism, so I don't feel the need to defend it. Marxist thought is a critique of Capitalism. Communism came out of that line of though, but they are not one in the same.

I think you took my "shit job" comment wrong. When I say "shit job" I actually mean an entry-level position like bagging groceries at a grocery store. I mean jobs where you get paid the minimum wage, but where you learn about what it means to work at a company work with co-workers and customers, work with bosses, etc. All of this is valuable, and I'm sorry to need to inform you that yes -- absolutely -- this is necessary!!!

Learning to subjugate yourself isn't necessary, thats just what we have been taught to accept as normal and necessary. I will agree with your point if you were to amend it to state, "All of this is valuable in the Capitalist system of beliefs, and I'm sorry to need to inform you that yes -- absolutely -- this is necessary to Capitalism!!!" Collaboration with other is crucial to our survival as humans, but getting a job and having your labour exploited isn't the only way to learn how to collaborate. NOT ALL LABOUR MUST BE EXPLOITED. Cooperative business models have been proven successful. For those of you who don't know, a cooperative business model is where everyone who contributes (in other words is employed) is a equal share owner in the business and shares equal responsibility in the decision making process. Obviously this is difficult in large corporations.

Dude, I hire people! I run a company! I more than many people reading this know what it's like to interview people who have had these jobs and others who have not!

Dude! I participated in interviewing an individual this afternoon and I participate in the decision making process of whether or not this person will be hired. The people I work with trust my opinion and perspective! I don't run a company but that doesn't invalidate my view or experience.

You also seemed to have a problem with one human being (or some evil corporation) making money off of the labor of another human being. If we had machines, then the one human being wouldn't have to make money off the other. To any extent that this is true at all -- then what are the now unemployed humans going to do? Get paid by the government for the rest of their lives? How valuable is that -- to them or to society?

I am not calling corporations evil. I said that money is the root of all evil, there is a difference. Money allows individuals/ groups to accumulate a disproportionate share (yes you are going to contest this, disproportionate in who's eyes... the people that don't know how/ want to work hard???) There are enough resources to go around and if there aren't, the population will regulate itself, thats what nature does. Accumulating is fun! I don't take a holier than thou approach here. Its a part of human psychology that is exploited. Evil manifests when people are willing do anything necessary to accumulate resources. Without money, it would be physically impossible to control a large amount of resources, it enables greed. This is why I used the word evil. Heck, Apple uses Foxconn for manufacturing and they found it more cost effective to put up suicide nets rather than actually change the working conditions or employee benefits to reduce suicide rates.

If you study what makes people happy, one of the things you learn is that WORK MAKES PEOPLE HAPPY!!! Doing things that are worthwhile -- either to them or to society makes people happy. Accomplishing things. Feeling the satisfaction of completing a job. That's what makes people happy! Sitting at home and collecting welfare isn't going to make people happy. (If you're not happy in your job, I'm sorry to hear that, but don't try too ruin it for the folks who are!!)

I agree with you, people are satisfied with the ability to see that which they create. I won't argue that. I am building an app right now and enjoy watching the clients use it and tell me what they like and what can be made better. What I am saying is that people would be even more satisfied if the products of their labour were of their own design, or of the design of someone whose values they harmonize with. When it comes to work, humans get in caught up in maintaining and fitting into the status quo and settle for jobs they can find rather than jobs that they love. After all, we all have to make a living in this society we have mutually co-created. If you think I am trying to ruin things for other, you are mistaken. I am merely trying to provide my perspective where thinkers like myself are in the minority. I am idealistic and I believe that to be a good thing and that it must be balanced with pragmatism, but IDEALS MUST COME FIRST not pragmatism. The type of thinking that I bring to the table isn't always taught, so I am giving other an opportunity to have a taste. I in no way condemn you or anybody for playing the game.

Happiness and joy are a choice. There is much suffering in the world, but people in the midst of the worst of it still find things to smile about. I have seen it and sure this is anecdotal evidence but I think this trait its built into the human spirit to ensure our survival.

And if you can find me examples of people anywhere who get paid by the government (yes, ultimately by the people who are still working and paying taxes), where those people are pursuing their passions and living life to the fullest instead of "being enslaved by evil corporations", let's see it.

I will find you evidence but I am going to redefine the criteria. I will post some things other have accomplished doing things while not having to worry about providing for their own wellbeing. This may include people that have benefactors, sponsorships, receive grant money, etc...

Keep in mind that the non-profit industries get their money from for-profit industries! Government creates nothing, it gets all of its funding from for-profit organizations. *SOMEONE* has got to make a profit, or nothing works...

The fact that someone has got to make a profit is a fallacy that you have been taught to believe. Yes, in Capitalism someone is going to make a profit, but you fail to extend your perspective beyond its limited confines.

And as a final word, I for one actually hire people AT ZERO PROFIT!! So, for example, sometimes when we need parts sorted, etc. we hire people to do that work at no profit for us. I'd rather have people (who might otherwise be sitting at home playing video games) do it than machines. And when I talk to people on the other end of the phone lines at the airline, and they tell me I can book my flight online for free, or pay them $25 to do it, I gladly pay every time. I want to keep humans in business. I want to keep humans at work. This has nothing to do with me wanting people enslaved. It has to do with me wanting to keep people happy, learning, building their lives.

Good for you, but the fact that you hire people at ZERO PROFIT is merely bending numbers. You are a for profit company and make profit. Some areas of your business are cost centers, hiring individuals that would otherwise being doing nothing "productive", but other areas of your business are profit centers that make up for your cost centers. Unless you are engaging in equal profit sharing with everyone you employ your above statement has been cleverly crafted to prove your point. You like Apple, so lets look at Apple. Apple spends millions, even billions on creating software, but software sales aren't what drive profit, at least not by themselves. Its hardware baby. Yes, the iPhone is nothing without the ecosystem, but that is what drives profit and that is why APPL stock keeps falling when the projection of iPhone sales is low.

Given what you wrote above I feel bad for you Sal, I really do. But the world needs things. It also needs leaders like Steve Jobs, Elon Musk and even me. And we need people to work with us to accomplish great things for the world. At our companies, people are happy to have the jobs we offer. They're not "enslaved" by us... This is evident in the long line of people looking for jobs at Apple, Tesla, SpaceX and even Pangolin.

You don’t have to spend your energy feeling bad for me Bill. I am quite satisfied with my life and that which I am unsatisfied with, am working to change, but I appreciate your concern though. If you really cared about my well being, I would invite you to call me and ask me how I am really doing instead projecting your beliefs on me. This is a real invitation by the way, I value intimate human communication and would love to get to know you better. I agree the world would benefit from visionaries and leaders. I would like to invite you to imagine the things that someone like Steve Jobs could have accomplished if they were operating outside of global capitalism. Its difficult, but you are a visionary (I don't say this in jest, you pushed beyond the old limits of galvo scanning which I assume was no easy feat), let your imagination run wild!

And if you think machines are so great and they're finally the answer that the world has been looking for -- so that teenagers can stay home and "pursue their passions" (for example playing video games) instead of getting an entry-level job and learning about themselves and the world at large, who the hell is going to design and build those machines in the first place?

Everyone has a passion and has purpose and value. If you given them time and encouragement they will find out what that is and will live it to the best of their ability. I have hope and faith in human kind.

What happens if the people whose turn it is to pick up the garbage refuse to do so? Is there going to be a job lottery system where you pick a number out of a hat and either have to clean a toilet or flip hamburgers? What happens afterwards when someone with low life skills doesn't have a job because the lottery workers are replacing him? Forcing everyone to do a job forces those out who would want to do it all their live (or had no choice). That's the same problem that is created by automation.

Gary, these is a great questions. They are the hard and practical questions. I would love to hear more of your ideas. Here is some brainstorming... if the individual doesn't want to participate in the collective, they have the choice to leave, or face denial of the collectives benefits. Peer pressure does wonders, as we all know, and could be utilized here. Who will enforce that? Does it have to be enforced? What I do know is that large scale consensus and democracy (I am not talking about a democratic republic) are difficult. I am currently educating myself on what has failed and looking at why. I also know that failures don't mean its time to stop. If Bill stopped the first time he "failed" at something ScannerMax wouldn't be here.

Why would you have to force someone out of a job they love doing... That just means you need one less person in the rotation of a particular necessary job.

My final thought is that all living beings on this planet are of equal worth and value and that worth and value cannot be defined by others because it is an inherent worth and value that is inherent to life. Let's start living this way.

-Sal

[JohnYayas]

Gary, these is a great questions. They are the hard and practical questions. I would love to hear more of your ideas. Here is some brainstorming... if the individual doesn't want to participate in the collective, they have the choice to leave, or face denial of the collectives benefits. Peer pressure does wonders, as we all know, and could be utilized here. Who will enforce that? Does it have to be enforced?

Well, I have more or less experienced living in the above scenario because that is what it is like on a Navy ship. No one was happy with that situation, that's for sure.

[rodman1369]

Well, I have more or less experienced living in the above scenario because that is what it is like on a Navy ship. No one was happy with that situation, that's for sure.

Whoa! I was in the Navy...on a Nuclear Fast Attack Submarine...and Every Day was an Adventure! 36 years later...and Still get excited when I see a submarine! Hated Field days...when we cleaned Just to clean! But So Many fond memories And Stories!!!

[JohnYayas]

Whoa! I was in the Navy...on a Nuclear Fast Attack Submarine...and Every Day was an Adventure! 36 years later...and Still get excited when I see a submarine! Hated Field days...when we cleaned Just to clean! But So Many fond memories And Stories!!!

Yea, pretty much the same for me except I was on a Nuclear Cruiser. Funny how in elementary school you are all excited about Field Day because it means a day of nothing but playing. Then you get to the Navy and Field Day is not fun at all. I'm actually going to visit two of my shipmates in August (one of the reasons I won't be able to go to SELEM). We all got out around 1992 but still stay in touch.