Isn't it about time to update the ILDA Projector Standards?

[araugh]

This may come off as trolling and if so I apologize but I'm not super sure how else to word this.

On the one hand, I like the ideal of a trade organization saying "Hey, this is how projectors need to be built so we all play friendly with eachother." I like this ideal to the point where I was on the ILDA projector standards committee for all of 3 meetings before giving up. But the reality in my opinion is that forcing tight technical standards over the whole projector as opposed to the signal is very detrimental to innovation. Hell, I think even sticking with the DB25 connector for so long was pretty shitty. Laser projector technology spent way too long stuck in the 90's, not because there weren't capable hardware and software developers out there, but because they were all trying to fit into the same box.

Is there another comparison in stage lighting out there? I don't think there is. Sure you can draw the parallels between ILDA as a control signal and DMX or Art-Net, but that's where it ends. ESTA doesn't tell moving head manufacturers they have to use a mechanical shutter or tell LED parcan manufacturers what their color channels should be.

The ILDA projector specification even specifies exact DMX parameters for DMX enabled lasers. And those parameters suck. Can you imagine how well it would work if ESTA went around telling moving head projectors that they all have to have framing shutters on channels 18-24 or they all have to have their strobe function be a linear ramp only on channel 32? They'd get ridiculed and the membership would leave immediately. Rightfully so.

Standards are good, but they should be limited in scope. In our industry, they should be limited to control signals only and even that's iffy IMO.

[aberry]

Unfortunately not. Etherdream uses its own network protocol that its driver uses to communicate with it, which is open source. If its architecture allows it, J4cbo could update the firmware so the DAC accepts IDN streams in addition to etherdream streams but this is not planned as far as I know. Other manufacturers, such as Pangolin, Fiesta, what have you, use a proprietary closed source protocol.

Instead of having a standalone DAC with an Ilda cable, recent developments (well... it's been going on for longer than a decade now) caused more and more projectors to ditch the Ilda connector in favor of a RJ45 connector with built-in DAC. These network protocols usually being closed source, this trend means that projectors will no longer be compatible with any DAC as they used to be with the standard DB25 connectors. That's the philosophy behind IDN: make an open protocol that projector manufacturers can adopt in favor of closed locked-in formats.

I'm glad that IDN exists, and Dirk and Mathias deserve a ton of credit for getting it out into the world. I was on the committee for a bit (although not at a point when I had the time to contribute in a meaningful way, sadly), and it was really Dirk's persistence in particular that brought IDN to life. Unfortunately I fear it's arrived too late to make a significant impact--Software vendors had already invested in their own solutions by the time IDN was released, and there's zero incentive for the bigger software companies to invest in interoperability, especially when software licenses are tied to hardware interfaces. I'm not sure what software support for IDN is like at this point (is it in LSX?) but there's little incentive to invest in a software implementation without extant hardware to support it, and vice versa. I really hope it sees wider adoption, but getting it to a critical mass is going to be hard.

[swamidog]

there are drivers available to use IDN with LSX. i've played my shows through IDN hardware multiple times at ILDA conventions and it's worked like a champ.

I'm glad that IDN exists, and Dirk and Mathias deserve a ton of credit for getting it out into the world. I was on the committee for a bit (although not at a point when I had the time to contribute in a meaningful way, sadly), and it was really Dirk's persistence in particular that brought IDN to life. Unfortunately I fear it's arrived too late to make a significant impact--Software vendors had already invested in their own solutions by the time IDN was released, and there's zero incentive for the bigger software companies to invest in interoperability, especially when software licenses are tied to hardware interfaces. I'm not sure what software support for IDN is like at this point (is it in LSX?) but there's little incentive to invest in a software implementation without extant hardware to support it, and vice versa. I really hope it sees wider adoption, but getting it to a critical mass is going to be hard.

[mixedgas]

I'll bring my IDN hardware to the two days I will be at SELEM if anyone wants to play.... I have the Transmitter that plugs into an ILDA source, an Ethernet cable and a Receiver. Basically I bought it as a range extender for the analog console and sat it in a drawer. I did send it to Germany for the latest updates. I let Dirk down by not doing the review (simply forgot) and I'm sorry for that. My day job plus being a full time caregiver for a home-bound parent has really adsorbed my time.
~
20 something professors, 138 Graduate Students, 330 Undergrads , and a bunch of Academic Laser Systems are a $hitload of never ending work! Yet I still do hardware for one friend in showlasers so he stays happy, gets his photon fix, and is well fed, Chapter 2 of LMRs book not withstanding.
~

I do own enough small RGB solid state to do a pretty kick ass show if I need to. One of these days I might get to finish tuning the used yellow and green OPSLs that some how showed up for a very low cost. Then I might find a use for the KTP Cobra if I ever had time. I have the last brand new Aquila ever made too.. made a year ago Probably should bring that to SELEM to show a lost part of the art to the newbies...
~
Steve

[buffo]

Out of curiosity, how much does it cost for a pair of these IDN devices? That is, if I wanted a transmitter to accept analog ILDA and stream it out over ethernet, and a receiver at the other end to decode it back to analog ILDA, what would I be looking at, cost wise, for the set?

And a follow-on question: Can you pair multiple receivers with just one transmitter, in a one-to-many broadcast?

Adam

[swamidog]

yes. you can do one to many. there's also a software based switcher. think of it kind of like dz's ilda router, but all in the digital domain.

Out of curiosity, how much does it cost for a pair of these IDN devices? That is, if I wanted a transmitter to accept analog ILDA and stream it out over ethernet, and a receiver at the other end to decode it back to analog ILDA, what would I be looking at, cost wise, for the set?

And a follow-on question: Can you pair multiple receivers with just one transmitter, in a one-to-many broadcast?

Adam

[buffo]

Cool!

So, to my first question then: how much?

Adam

[araugh]

As far as I know, this is the lowest cost commercially available solution right now.

http://www.spectrabeam.de/en/idn-ild...nd-manual.html

And let's be real, converting 1 line of ILDA to IDN is not worth 800 euro.

[mixedgas]

You might do a little better here, at the designer's place. As always, you probably can do better then list.

http://www.dexlogic.de/work/4409-digi/DigiScan-en.html

I paid 400$ for a lightly used set in the USA.
~
LSX supposedly talks to it directly. From what I'm hearing there is a way to talk to it with PC/Linux/Windows as playback.
~
Steve..
~

The in-projector module is interesting:
~
Fully implemented ISP-DB25 port and ISP-DMX ports. IDN (ILDA Digital Network, under development) on 100 MBit Ethernet.

User reset, sets defaults for common parameters such as networking for easy retrieval in case of misconfiguration

Sophisticated time line reassembly and tracking algorithm with jitter compensation and automatic latency adaption.

Flexible frequency synthesizer with a resolution of 250nS. The synthesizer allows for precise playback frequency match and detune needed by latency adaption.

Hardware-assisted sample processing

Optional Features

• Timeshifts for intensity and color (based on galvo command, known as colorshift) and color lines (based on intensity, introduced as color line tweaking).
• Timeshifts between signals are configured in units of microseconds with a resolution of 250 nanoseconds. This keeps the shifts stable for all sample frequencies.
• DAC output calibration (gain and offset).
• Laser power linearisation, individually for all color lines. Uses a polynomial to adjust non-linear laser power response of solid state lasers (not yet available).
• Geometry processor (not yet available).
• Safety zones (not yet available).
• UART to receive commands from an external CPU.
• Telnet to UART tunnel for system migration.
• User interface dialog. Interfaces for display and keys.

Hardware Features

• ILDA ISP-DB25 output on 2.54mm header, compatible with DB25/IDC cabeling.
• Digital shutter output (TTL).
• 3x16 Bit DAC for X, Y, U4 signals.
• 7x12 Bit DAC for I, R, G, B, U1, U2, U3 signals.
• All converters are connected serially and can be driven with individual timings to allow precise time shifts (X / Y can't be shifted against each other).
• 5% overdrive for component tolerance compensation
  
  Steve