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  1. #51
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    OK. This is weird.... The 2014 ILDA Spec says....

    Appendix A. Suggested Default Color Palette The color palette described here was originally developed by LFI and Aura Technologies. It contains 64 colors of the full saturated hues and white.This color palette is used by most ILDA files that do not contain a color palette, including the ILDA test pattern.

    So the standard doc credits the palette to LFI and Aura Technologies.

    But I just downloaded LFI Player and it has a palette selection tool that, by default comes up with the P word checked.

    Anarchy also comes up with the palette defined as a pal text file called the P word.

    So where did it really come from? And which version is correct?
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    OK. This is weird.... The 2014 ILDA Spec says....

    Appendix A. Suggested Default Color Palette The color palette described here was originally developed by LFI and Aura Technologies. It contains 64 colors of the full saturated hues and white.This color palette is used by most ILDA files that do not contain a color palette, including the ILDA test pattern.

    So the standard doc credits the palette to LFI and Aura Technologies.

    But I just downloaded LFI Player and it has a palette selection tool that, by default comes up with the P word checked.

    Anarchy also comes up with the palette defined as a pal text file called the P word.

    So where did it really come from? And which version is correct?
    I have peeked at this ILD doc before, but I did not look at the end to see the suggested palette info; there are some slight differences between it and Anarchy's table, but
    the basic approach is still the same- 64 entries (0-63) with at least one color saturated in each in a wraparound continuum with no black. LWave includes a 24bit palette with
    1785 indexes using this same approach and it's the startup color scheme. I wonder why ILDA didn't include an ex cathedra pronouncement of the suggested palette in the standard
    decades ago.

    The default palette may just be associated with the P word because they were likely the one to popularize it back in the day regardless of who the original developers were.

    As to which version is correct, we have relatively recent ex post facto affirmation from the Vatican circa 2014. Anyone who promotes any other version will be excommunicated.

  3. #53
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    You should know by now Dean. The ways of ILDA are a mystery to mere mortals like us.

    One thing I notice that is different between the 2014 ILDA palette definition and the other palettes is the definition of white (255,255,255).

    In the 2014 palette, white is found at index 56 and no other.

    In the Default_palette found in LaserBoy, white is found at 55 and 57.

    In the Anarchy palette, white is found at 56 and 58.

    So that is an issue. I don't know why you would need two different palette entries for white.

    Perhaps it is time to summon The Council Of Elders to discuss this matter further.
    It would be trivial for me to replace the Default_ palette in LB with the ILDA 2014 version.
    But other developers on this forum should know about it!
    How many ILDA frames are out there with white defined as palette index 55?
    That's kind-of a big deal.

    If I remember correctly there are 1530 unique RGB combinations that are fully saturated hue.

    http://akrobiz.com/ezfb/graphics/ezfb_h_16.jpg

    This image was made in ezfb http://akrobiz.com/ezfb/

    Here's the code that calculates the RGB values for the hue number:

    Code:
    //############################################################################
    u_int ezfb_rgb_hue(struct ezfb* fb, u_short hue)
    {
        u_short r = 0, g = 0, b = 0;
        u_char  shift;
        hue %= 1530;
        shift = hue % 255;
        if(hue < 255)
        {
            r = 255;
            g = shift;
        }
        else if(hue < 510)
        {
            r = 256 - shift;
            g = 255;
        }
        else if(hue < 765)
        {
            g = 255;
            b = shift;
        }
        else if(hue < 1020)
        {
            g = 256 - shift;
            b = 255;
        }
        else if(hue < 1275)
        {
            r = shift;
            b = 255;
        }
        else
        {
            r = 255;
            b = 256 - shift;
        }
        return fb->make_rgb(fb, r, g, b);
    }
    Last edited by james; 12-09-2018 at 20:15.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post

    In the Anarchy palette, white is found at 56 and 58.

    So that is an issue. I don't know why you would need two different palette entries for white.


    If I remember correctly there are 1530 unique RGB combinations that are fully saturated hue.
    I'll guess there was was a typo or two on Anarchy's table that other scribes repeated down the line.

    Yes there are 1530 values in a simple 24bit RGB rainbow, but the default palette takes a detour ramp into white making the trip a little different (and slightly longer).

  5. #55
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    When I first started working with laser art and the ilda file format in 2003, I had anarchy and the software that came with the QM-32. I made a bunch of frames that had white in them. It didn't seem to be an issue then. The 3D snow man is still in in.ild and it is white.
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  6. #56
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    Why the ^uck do you not just email Steve
    Heminover
    and ask him about how the file format was developed.

    If I remember right the color table was one of his contributions. The original color table was the one in the standard. When Pangolin used it, there was a tweek or two. Pangolin is the dominant Hippo in the river, so everyone switched to the Pango table as the defacto standard. We was a small bunch in them thar days, and would have phoned around if we found an issue and asked what the fix was. So if you had an X-29 file you loaded the right color table into Anarchy then saved as ILDA, or something like that. Heck, if I needed to know about the standard I would have reached for the Phone Directory and called the Tech Comm chair who would have sent me to the next person to call, who would KNOW. That level of knowledge was pre-internet or never made it to the net.


    Here is "El Presidente's" public facing email.

    Steve "AT SIGN" aura-technologies.com

    He's quite an interesting fellow.

    The "Elders" of ILDA were a loose knit fun loving bunch of busy guys (and some women) who led companies and took needed short cuts. Not a bunch of folks with time on their hands like ASME and DIN and IEEE and the other professional standards bodies.
    If there was an error they would have phoned and asked the others, changed the code as needed , and MAYBE corrected the books at the next meeting IF they remembered at the Tech Comm meeting. ILDA's charter requires a full year for a change to be approved on anything short of a political emergency banning laser shows. . They were volunteers, and time at meetings was spent on other things then nit-picking a voluntary standard. If there was an issue they would have called the current ILDA Secretary and asked Her (Usually a skilled and practical wife of a senior member who worked in her husband's company office) to put the correction in the next newsletter or email. ILDA MEETING = Business, Beer, Awards, Watching Shows,, and Talking back then, not setting there debating the elegance of a for-next loop. If the official part of a board meeting at a conference took more then an hour something was wrong. Executive sessions were a day away from the members a few times a year, if not just a conference call, but done in a way that respects the charter.

    Hell, they (The management and Artists) feared a conspiracy at first if more then two or three of their techies were in the same room at the same time talking. Ask Arron Bacs about that story. That got better with time and more people attending meetings.
    I remember when I went to a Laser-FX Meeting and LMR showed up with an IBM-PC XT printer switchbox, cue ILDA changing from a 36 pin CPC standard connector to a DB25 alternative option,, then the DB25 become the standard. Things were informal like that, not years of debate over IEEE 802.x wifi standards before adoption.

    Steve
    Last edited by mixedgas; 12-10-2018 at 11:31.
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  7. #57
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    OSR has spoken.
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    OSR has spoken.
    Oh Fuc& it James, call the other Steve and get what happened and when if he remembers. He's Not the kind of guy to have a problem with telling you the history. Get it now before everyone involved gets Alzheimers or dies. He did part of his own in-house programming, so he knows what you want to know. You want the living Elder, at least the one whose memory is still sharp, then give him a call.


    Steve
    Last edited by mixedgas; 12-10-2018 at 11:45.
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  9. #59
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    Default What is White or Whong?

    Quote Originally Posted by mixedgas View Post
    Oh Fuc& it James,

    Steve
    You're getting saucy in your old age.

    Anyway....

    I did a bit more testing. I made a frame with lines of palette indexes 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60.
    I used the same technique of capturing the screen to Paint Shop Pro and checked the RGB values of each line.
    For this group of palette indexes, LaserBoy and LFI Player are exactly the same!
    Looking into it a bit further, it seems like the difference between (LB + LFI) and Anarchy is at index 46. Anarchy has a value in that position of (192, 0, 255) and all of the indexes that follow it are pushed up one place from there to the end of the palette (compared to LB & LFI).

    So, white is 55 and 57 in both LaserBoy and LFI.
    White is 56 and 58 in Anarchy.
    White is only 56 in the 2014 ILDA Spec.

    So I am really confused now about where I got the RGB table for the Default palette! I really don't remember. Did I get it from the same source as LFI Player or did LFI Player get it from LaserBoy?

    BTW, neither Anarchy or LFI Player seem to be able to read an ILDA format 2 color palette. I put an alternate palette in the middle of in.ild and both apps fail to read the file entirely.

    UPDATE: I just downloaded the source code for LFI Player and found the file where the included palettes are defined. It is dated 2005 in the header of the file. That was well before any public release of LaserBoy. I have no reason to believe that the palette definitions in this file have been altered since they were first written. So it's safe to say that LaserBoy got the same palette definition some time later. One difference is that the last unique value in the palette is repeated to the end of a full 256 values.
    Last edited by james; 12-10-2018 at 14:19.
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  10. #60
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    Mike would have gotten it internally at LFI, Used the standard to create a table, or possibly from Rick G. He would have needed it for Laserous Light Flowers, which is the prior program that helped land him a job at LFI. He had one far better program after LLF, I cant remember the name but I have it somewhere, and then LFI player hatched and became open source when he left LFI. I'm betting you got it from Anarchy or Rick, or made your own table. Old Pangolin had an internal, coded, color table, so that ruled that out. FORMAT TWO was always the &^%$ PITA.

    Think what you'd have to do to put a simple streaming show player in a 8 bit 8051 clone chip with 4K or 8K of Rom and anywhere from 256 to 2K of Ram, maybe 4K at the most, in 4 banks, that will determine the origin of most of the Chinese laser players.

    Steve
    Last edited by mixedgas; 12-10-2018 at 14:36.
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