CYGN-B

[laserist]

No worries, Greg liked (so did I) the character of the "Dogloids", they just worked - in a good way - with the non-feedback scanners of the day, at least with Laserium's PDM amps. It was a nice look. The thing about all of this is - and this is just me musing, but if you want to keep my attention with an image, it needs to be something I can wrap my head around. There's a guy I work with that just gets incensed when somebody doesn't blank the retrace on an image. It doesn't bother me at all. The first digital image Laserium ever did wrote Laserium in script with the top of the "L" ringing to a stop before running again. The ringing can be cool, but the if the image is lame...

Somebody on one of my feeds pointed out that Van Gogh's Starry Night looks like a turbulent boundary simulation. The thing is it's something we can process, if not calculate...

[lasermaster1977]

No worries, Greg liked (so did I) the character of the "Dogloids", they just worked - in a good way - with the non-feedback scanners of the day, at least with Laserium's PDM amps. It was a nice look. The thing about all of this is - and this is just me musing, but if you want to keep my attention with an image, it needs to be something I can wrap my head around. There's a guy I work with that just gets incensed when somebody doesn't blank the retrace on an image. It doesn't bother me at all. The first digital image Laserium ever did wrote Laserium in script with the top of the "L" ringing to a stop before running again. The ringing can be cool, but the if the image is lame...

Somebody on one of my feeds pointed out that Van Gogh's Starry Night looks like a turbulent boundary simulation. The thing is it's something we can process, if not calculate...

I don't have a very good sense as to what extent the "Dogloids" do, what their range of "visual expression" are, OR how they were used in Laserium shows. But I'd like to, just for reference, if possible.

My first 3 years of doing RYGB, 4 channel XY scanner shows used GS open-loop scanners (as I'm sure I've stated before in PL) using 1-10 harmonically related sine, triangle and square only waveforms. I LOVED the ringing effects of slow, free-running XY square waves at and near the scanner resonant frequencies...AS DID THE AUDIENCES!

Similarly, my first digital laser image was my handwritten cursive script of the word "Laser". The only images I can find are shown here. The first image below, however, is done with closed-loop scanners shooting through mist, the 2nd is a composite image that shows the actual 128 points (or close) used in the scan of "Laser".




When I first used the "Laser" image with GS-115 open-loop scanners it did not have blanking, so the retrace from the "s" back to the top of the "L' was visible, and the frame-rate was around 3 hertz in order for the image to "hold together"...but THE AUDIENCES STILL LOVED IT, and so did I, especially when chopper wheel blanking was added and the retrace line "zipped" back to the top of the "L"!

So, we are similarly aligned in our likes. My personal desire (and procrastinating intent) is to have a dedicated pair (or two) of my GS-115 open-loop scanners in my new project build that will incorporate newer 40K closed-loop scanners and lumia sections as well. The RLC ringing of these open-loop scanners seen in XY slow, free-running square waves at 45 and 90 Hz at a 1:1, 1:2, 2:1, and other variations were ENTERTAINING EYE CANDY for sure. I posted the only old photo example of this in a recent PL post.

[Greg]

Sorry to sidetrack the discussion. I wasn't suggesting basing new design on the DOG card. I just read about lasermaster1977's early system using 6502, interrupts, DACs, apples, etc. and thought the DOGN might seem amusingly weird to someone who did a comparable 4 output system.

The important part of course is the 6502 code which as we know, is safely operational now. There is only one stereo DAC of output and the output isn't double buffered, which can be noticeable, and a c64 is needed. But that's not the discussion either.

I think the RGB to RYGB color mod converter with four channel output, joystick, and... and... as suggested is a good thing to work on. Is 4 ILDA output ports the most sensible goods delivery format?

A CYGN-C design is an interesting topic indeed. Given that, if I understand correctly, most of that is intended to be done in software, my thoughts are about the synchronizing 555s and that inimitable accuracy of control of the timings through the ten turn pots. What of that should be preserved, and how?

I'm giving some attention to the console wiring, then back to searching the 351 data for specimens of SPGN spiral board control, which is still a bit of a mystery exactly what it was used for. The Danube board I'll postpone work on. I'll review the posts from a while back to see if I can understand the proposed scheme for using multipliers and fixed offsets to accomplish 4 channel beam torquer.

[lasermaster1977]

Sorry to sidetrack the discussion. I wasn't suggesting basing new design on the DOG card. I just read about [COLOR=#3E3E3E]lasermaster1977's early system using 6502, interrupts, DACs, apples, etc. and thought the DOGN might seem amusingly weird to someone who did a comparable 4 output system.

I'm all ears if sharing is possible.

[laserist]

I liked the quadralateral symmetry of 4 scan pairs.

I'd keep the analog VCOs for the CYGN-B. Instead of clocking the Johnson Counters they would latch the new DAC values to the output. They would need to be faster for today's scanners. You could also have a provision for harmonic jumps in clock freq. You could also choose between the number of points per cycle. And you could do interesting things with waveform beyond a triangle wave.

[lasermaster1977]

No worries, Greg liked (so did I) the character of the "Dogloids", they just worked - in a good way -

Are there examples of "Dogloids" in this thread or anywhere. I don't find any.

I'm of the impression this is still very proprietary.

[Greg]

Are there examples of "Dogloids" in this thread or anywhere. I don't find any.

I'm of the impression this is still very proprietary.

Page 24 of this thread is where the recovery of the dogloids is first documented.

link to the dogloids catalog video:
https://youtu.be/fJ7kAR7D8yU

The Digital Offset Generator was a vector format, possibly wire wrapped board in one of the card cages of the 6b. It contained a 6502, 8 bit DAC outputs, and mostly ROM in a very limited addressing space. This board generated dynamic DC offsets controlled by the 351 data, and also ran little algorithms that produced motion paths and cycloids, some of which relied on a low resolution sine table. Which is to say, it is a tiny library of code which includes a low res sine based cycloid generator like but unlike the CYGN-B. Dogloids refer to a set of 4 byte presets that were the only way to access the cycloid generator's somewhat more extensive capabilities.

[lasermaster1977]

Page 24 of this thread is where the recovery of the dogloids is first documented.

link to the dogloids catalog video:
https://youtu.be/fJ7kAR7D8yU

The Digital Offset Generator was a vector format, possibly wire wrapped board in one of the card cages of the 6b. It contained a 6502, 8 bit DAC outputs, and mostly ROM in a very limited addressing space. This board generated dynamic DC offsets controlled by the 351 data, and also ran little algorithms that produced motion paths and cycloids, some of which relied on a low resolution sine table. Which is to say, it is a tiny library of code which includes a low res sine based cycloid generator like but unlike the CYGN-B. Dogloids refer to a set of 4 byte presets that were the only way to access the cycloid generator's somewhat more extensive capabilities.

I do recall watching the youtube link weeks or months ago but didn't have a very good appreciation for what it represented.

Thanks Greg. I did a site search on DOGN and this thread was a hit, but I back-tracked about 20 pages and never saw any mention beyond the most recent. (PL searches suck)
So was it just XY 8-bit DAC outputs? What was the manner of 351 inputs into the DOGN board? What is the context of "low resolution sine table", e.g. 128 vectors per cycle?
What does "tiny" equate to?

4 byte presets came from CYGN-B?

If you need to respond via PM that's cool.

[Greg]

So was it just XY 8-bit DAC outputs? What was the manner of 351 inputs into the DOGN board? What is the context of "low resolution sine table", e.g. 128 vectors per cycle?
What does "tiny" equate to?

4 byte presets came from CYGN-B?

Yes, it was XY 8-bit DAC outputs. I'm not sure exactly how the system controlled the DOGN board. I see in the 351 data frame that there is a 1 byte speed value and a selector bit or two. Here is a re-post from page 18 of the sin table:

$1CD0:
00000000000101010202020303040404050506070808090A0B 0C0D0E0F1011121314151617191A1B1C1E1F20222325262729 2A2C2D2F3032333537383A3B3D3E404143454648494B4C4E4F 5152545557585A5B5D5E5F61626365666768696B6C6D6E6F70 71727374757576777879797A7A7B7C7C7C7D7D7E7E7E7E7F7F 7F7F7F

That is 128 bytes for a quarter cycle. Nothing came from the CYGN-B. The 4 byte presets (16 of them total) came from on board ROM. I think the presets represent two 16 bit values that serve as frequencies for two software oscillators that use the above lookup table.

Tiny means the sin table and all the machine language routines including a random numbers generator, several motion path generators, a bank of fixed offsets, the dogloid presets, various house keeping code, and the cycloid generator all within less than 2K.

[ekeefe]

Hello,

@greg
PM sent

I understand your concerns about making this information public. As I stated before, if I'm instructed to keep it private, private it will remain. I'm happy to do PCBs, even if it only for a small circle of users.

Finding old, rare, unobtainium parts is part of what I do. I restore old 8-bit computers. You can see some of what I do here:

http://www.cosmacvip.com/
http://www.comx35.com/

Is the 'Jon' you're referring to the one at 'Daystar'? If so, I thought he sold off his interest in Laserium. I've done a couple of projects for the current owner of Laserium. Maybe you know who that is, I've been asked to not talk about it publicly.

@laserist
I'm happy to help with a redesign of the 6502 circuit. I work with a bunch of different microprocessor chips, including: Intel 8051, PIC, AVR, Propeller and ARM. So getting something more modern working wouldn't be too much work. I love updating old tech.

@TheHermit
PM sent

@lasermaster1977
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ED