ILD Render - rendering laser graphics from Blender & Inkscape

[masterpj]

laserboy really needs mouse support.

I've made some 3D frames but never ran any through ildsos when I had ild export.
but the use for 3d frames is kinda niche and i believe the DXF files rendered from illustrate at least are flattened.. not sure about other programs but i reckon if you do you get a wireframe which unless very simple geometry will be quickly too much for the laser.

The problem with z depth scene rendering is the scaling of the depth data as not every scene is the same scale. Single objects it might be less of a matter though as long as its not in motion.

[james]

What would you want a mouse to do in LaserBoy?

If your answer is to pick items out of drop down menus, well..... that's what the keyboard does.

LaserBoy is at its core a rather complex memory model.

It can contain frames each of arbitrary size in a set of frames of arbitrary size with relationships to a set of palettes of arbitrary size or 24-bit color.

LaserBoy knows how to render a (raster) bitmap of this memory object based on the current state of a set of variables and what it is currently doing, like the state of the camera (zoom, pan, rotation) and the settings for the visual attributes like vertices, blanking, indices, palettes, cursors, etc.

Every time you hit a key LB renders the current state and puts it in the application window.

Everything you see in the app window is rendered in the code, including that lovely 8 pixel square font.

LaserBoy started life as a Linux console application that used to render directly into the video card RAM. It actually took two computers to run it. A Linux machine with a high resolution video card and monitor and another computer to shell into that for a command prompt menu system.

My video card API (ezfb) only works in Linux and only with kernels built with frame buffer support.

So I converted the whole thing to build on top of SDL. SDL gives me a window. It gives me the address of the first pixel in that window and the bits per pixel. It also gives me keyboard events and some timers for showing animated frames on the screen.

James.

[swamidog]

i want a mouse to operate it like any modern application. i'm really not very interested in learning esoteric keystrokes vs. operating an intuitive interface.

especially when there isn't a real manual.

What would you want a mouse to do in LaserBoy?

If your answer is to pick items out of drop down menus, well..... that's what the keyboard does.

LaserBoy is at its core a rather complex memory model.

It can contain frames each of arbitrary size in a set of frames of arbitrary size with relationships to a set of palettes of arbitrary size or 24-bit color.

LaserBoy knows how to render a (raster) bitmap of this memory object based on the current state of a set of variables and what it is currently doing, like the state of the camera (zoom, pan, rotation) and the settings for the visual attributes like vertices, blanking, indices, palettes, cursors, etc.

Every time you hit a key LB renders the current state and puts it in the application window.

Everything you see in the app window is rendered in the code, including that lovely 8 pixel square font.

LaserBoy started life as a Linux console application that used to render directly into the video card RAM. It actually took two computers to run it. A Linux machine with a high resolution video card and monitor and another computer to shell into that for a command prompt menu system.

My video card API (ezfb) only works in Linux and only with kernels built with frame buffer support.

So I converted the whole thing to build on top of SDL. SDL gives me a window. It gives me the address of the first pixel in that window and the bits per pixel. It also gives me keyboard events and some timers for showing animated frames on the screen.

James.

[james]

i want a mouse to operate it like any modern application. i'm really not very interested in learning esoteric keystrokes vs. operating an intuitive interface.

especially when there isn't a real manual.

Ok. So LaserBoy does exactly what you want to do. It's free and I've already offered to help you with it.

You are literally a few keystrokes away from having what you want.

ildSOS is not free. It doesn't allow you to optimize in 3D and its ability to read DXF files comes from the fact that it was built on top of the core code of LaserBoy.

So I guess you have answered your own question.

No. There is no way for you to do what you want.

[buffo]

James, this subject has come up before. Yes, Laserboy *can* do lots of things, *if* you take the time to learn all the keyboard commands. However, for the vast majority of users, learning keyboard commands is a daunting task. You are alienating new users by refusing to acknowledge this fact.

I agree that programmers in general prefer keyboard shortcuts - at least for applications that they use frequently - and given that you developed Laserboy and probably have used it more than anyone else it totally makes sense that you don't see anything cumbersome with the keyboard-only interface.

But you are not a representative sample of the sort of person who is looking for software that can do what Laserboy does. Those people want something that is intuitive and familiar that they can start using right away, without fumbling through a list of keyboard commands.

No one is saying that you need to get rid of the keyboard commands. But if Laserboy had a traditional GUI with mouse support and menu options it would make the software more accessible to people. There is a reason why the vast majority of software available today uses this sort of interface, even if it also supports keyboard shortcuts for "power users".

I understand that you like the interface as it is. But very few people agree with you. You often complain that people don't consider using Laserboy when they want to create a given laser effect. Don't you see that if you listen to the users who are giving you feedback about the interface you could have more people using your software?

I mean, where do your priorities lie? If you honestly don't care that people won't use your software because they don't like the interface, that's fine. You're obviously entitled to stand on principle if that's what you want. But if you really do want to see more people using your software to create cool laser artwork, you need to think about swallowing your pride for a moment and at least trying to give them the interface they've been asking for.

Personally I haven't even fired up Laserboy in many years. That doesn't mean that your software isn't capable. There are plenty of things I could be using Laserboy for. But l don't have time to struggle through the interface. So Laserboy sits on my computer with all the other laser show software packages that I no longer use.

Please don't take this as a personal attack, James. I *want* to see more people using your software. But that's really unlikely with the current interface. Instead of getting angry about it, why not try to improve things?

Adam

[james]

LaserBoy is a work of art; both the running application and the code that makes it. I'm not saying that to be boastful. It is a technically correct description of what it is.

No one has to memorize the entire menu system to use it. All of the menus are right there on the screen.

Obviously finding a particular key on the keyboard and tapping it is not a daunting task. But understanding what is going on behind the keyboard certainly is.

There are no "esoteric keystrokes". It uses a standard US English keyboard just like the one sitting in front of your computer.

If I put all of the menus in drop down lists so that one could click an individual item there, it wouldn't make any of it any easier to use.

LaserBoy can do a huge list of things that no other application can do at all in any form.

It has been out there for well over a decade and many laser application developers have used it as a reference standard to verify that their own software development is moving in the right direction. I know this because I have worked with several of them.

It has also been used in at least two museum installations and at least two people used is as part of getting their Master of Fine Arts degrees; one in Australia and one in the UK. I only know that because I happened to find the pdf files of their master's theses in a Google search. There is an ardiono project that relies entirely on LaserBoy and its ability to export frame sets as plain ASCII text tables. That's the only way to get vector frame set data into the frames buffer of the device.

The first major breakthrough in my development of the code way back in late 2003 was getting an ild file imported into the memory model and displaying it on the screen. Once I could see what was going on, it quite literally told me where it wanted to go and showed me if I was getting there. Aside from all of the many functions it can do to 3D color vector art frame sets, it is an outstanding visualization tool just to look at it and understand it better.

Since I knew I was looking into 3D short integer space that is a finite cube of coordinates 65535 points wide (and there is no mouse in an ssh shell) I knew that I wanted nothing to do with trying to manipulate vectors in that space with a mouse. A mouse is 2D and limited to the resolution of the computer screen. So I took it as a challenge to figure out how to maneuver in this space with absolute precision with only a keyboard. That's an advantage over a mouse; not a disadvantage. The only way I could associate a mouse with this kind of methodology would be to create a visual keypad to point and click on that would emulate the function of the keys on the keyboard. That takes up screen real-estate and doesn't add one bit of functionality. If I had taken the path of developing LaserBoy with a windowing API and mouse support, it would not have become what it is.

Also, the fact that it is written in C++ has everything to do with how it works. It depends entirely on things like The Standard Template Library, inheritance, polymorphism, operator overloading, hierarchical data structures, container class pointers and many other concepts that are germane to C++. So again, it is a working example of these concepts in action and potentially a great learning experience. I often site it as an example of these many things when I'm helping someone understand C++.

The word "intuitive" keeps popping up. There is nothing intuitive about using a computer. You might not realize it but it takes years to become proficient in using a computer, even if you never learn anything about software development. Try sitting someone down in front of a computer who has never used one before. Hand him or her a mouse and see what happens.

You assume very few people use LaserBoy. You can't possibly know that. Actually lots of people use it all over the world. Many of them have no connection to laser display at all. They use it just as an interesting way to make art and show it on their computer screens. Ever since 2013, it has been possible to type "apt install laserboy" at the command prompt of an Ubuntu or Debian based Linux machine and get it. It is in the global Debian package repository.

You ask me to swallow my pride. Why not set your objections and prejudices aside for a moment and look at it with a fresh pair of eyes and an open mind. Many people get over the keyboard issue very quickly, forget about it and become fascinated by what they can do with an application that is totally original and not like anything they've ever used before.

The idea that someone who considers himself to be an artist, is looking for a way to do something very specific, has the solution (possibly the only one) handed to him with an offer of assistance but can't get past the idea of having to do something a little unfamiliar, is just absurd.

I don't imagine any of this will change your mind about LaserBoy. But at least others might read this and consider trying something completely different.

If you haven't used LaserBoy for many years then your version is way out of date.

[masterpj]

I don't think you understand james.
It is your program you are off course free to do with it.. but every feedback has been similiar.
I've had laser boy sit on my pc for years.. I've only used it 2 times in my entire career so far.. its literally been untouched for years.. it's interface is one of those reasons and secondly because its all key based it also fits in no workflow.. it's not intuitive or quick or really nice for editing frames etc..

It might have some unique features but its hidden behind tons of keys or cryptic terms that could be eased when the interface would allow for it.. (but it's an all text interface)... It hasn't exactly kept up with the times of what people actually use.

There might be some users that will struggle through it based on that it's free...

[swamidog]

There is an ardiono project that relies entirely on LaserBoy and its ability to export frame sets as plain ASCII text tables. That's the only way to get vector frame set data into the frames buffer of the device.

ilda<-text->ilda is a trivial conversion. we developed a tiny little command line app that is using .ild files for a novel application:

cshort@exogenic:~/rad/ilda_conv$ ./ilda_conv
E: ilda_conv - usage:
E: ilda_conv MODE infile [outfile]
E: MODE: ii - display ILDA file info
E: i2t - ILDA to text file - integer mode
E: i2tf - ILDA to text file - float mode
E: t2i - text file to ILDA - integer mode
E: tf2i - text file to ILDA - float mode
E: infile: input file to process
E: outfile: output file to write

cshort@exogenic:~/rad/ilda_conv$ ./ilda_conv tf2i two-clones-animated-03.txt ../ilda/test/c-two-clones-animated-03.ild
E: ilda_conv - tf2i mode - converting text file to ILDA - float input
E: ilda_conv - num_frames found: 4
E: frame: 0 - num_points: 2
E: frame: 1 - num_points: 2
E: frame: 2 - num_points: 2
E: frame: 3 - num_points: 2
I: ifpi - filename:
I: ifpi - num frames: 4
I: ifpi - frame: 0 - fmt: 4 - points: 2 - name: two sym - company name:
I: ifpi - point: 0 - 32111 0 32767 255 0 0 0
I: ifpi - point: 1 - -32111 0 -32767 255 0 0 0
I: ifpi - frame: 1 - fmt: 4 - points: 2 - name: two sym - company name:
I: ifpi - point: 0 - 0 0 32767 255 0 0 0
I: ifpi - point: 1 - 0 0 -32767 255 0 0 0
I: ifpi - frame: 2 - fmt: 4 - points: 2 - name: two sym - company name:
I: ifpi - point: 0 - 0 32111 32767 0 0 0 1
I: ifpi - point: 1 - 0 -32111 0 255 0 0 0
I: ifpi - frame: 3 - fmt: 4 - points: 2 - name: two sym - company name:
I: ifpi - point: 0 - 0 0 -32767 255 0 0 0
I: ifpi - point: 1 - 0 0 0 255 0 0 0

The idea that someone who considers himself to be an artist, is looking for a way to do something very specific, has the solution (possibly the only one) handed to him with an offer of assistance but can't get past the idea of having to do something a little unfamiliar, is just absurd.

That's a profound mischaracterization and an unnecessary slam. Well designed software should be intuitive and documented. Yours is powerful under the hood. There is no debate about that. Unfortunately, yours is only intuitive and documented for your own usage.

[james]

So all of that is "trivial", but tapping a key on the keyboard with a menu right in front of you is not.

What I wrote was not a "slam". It was an observation; much like your "characterizations" of LaserBoy.

For all the typing you've done on behalf of this subject, you could have been done and happy with what you were asking about in the first place.

I guess it's a glass half empty.

[swamidog]

So all of that is "trivial", but tapping a key on the keyboard with a menu right in front of you is not.

What I wrote was not a "slam". It was an observation; much like your "characterizations" of LaserBoy.

For all the typing you've done on behalf of this subject, you could have been done and happy with what you were asking about in the first place.

I guess it's a glass half empty.

What you're missing, of course, is the util we created is for our own use and not for other users. Your software *is* intended for other users.

Even so, our utility comes with usage documentation.