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Thread: A man made tragedy for all humanity

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    I'm beyond disgusted with all the trumptards believing they are the only patriotic Americans. Patriotic Americans don't support a president who attempted insurrection.
    They do if you make them believe something is wrong with our country, that somewhere, the ship is running aground. Now, as a patriot, it's your duty to steer the ship in the right direction, to get the country back on track, to "Make it great again", at any cost. Revolution! This is how most dictators and totalitarians have overthrown governments. Make the people believe something is wrong, that it's time for change, and "let's get back to our roots"... A little mandated violence but mostly mustering the masses.

    I don't think republicans are evil. You're only seeing a very small and very loud minority. Their volume only makes their numbers seem larger. Most republicans I know didn't like Trump but wouldn't vote for Hillary. I would say it's the same for a good portion of republicans. It's only the extremists that take things too far. The image of the republicans got muddied because they nominated and voted for a bigoted megalomaniac who has no place in politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eidetic View Post
    Both parties are not the same.
    Not in ideologies but in practice, yes. When something is polar opposite to something else, it's just inversion. One is not evil, the other is not righteous but both have outlived their usefulness. Moderates have far cooler heads and are able to look at both sides. A binary party system is the worst. Tell me which party I need to vote for: I believe in gun ownership, full on. I believe in total equality for LGBTQ and women. I believe in religious rights (and that is being said as an agnostic). I think abortion is wrong but I support a woman's right to choose. I absolutely HATE PC culture and can't stand the fact that we have to censor ourselves with even most ambiguous words that have been given artificial meaning because someone used it out of context. I think we need lower taxes and smaller government. Minimum wage needs to go up, a lot. If you run a small retail business that sells the same shit that big chains do, tough shit, find a new line of work... I don't agree with the Republicans. I don't agree with the Democrats. There are a lot of us out there. We get screwed because we have two things to choose from, polar opposites. Moderates get the worst of it. There will never be a 3rd party in the white house and that's sad. So yes, both parties are the same entity, just opposite ends of the spectrum. They clash and as a result, nothing gets done. I will always vote third party and I hope it screws the binary monopoly every time.
    Last edited by absolom7691; 01-10-2021 at 15:18.
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  2. #22
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    I have very, very similar views as you. Was interested in McCain until he chose Palin. But that choice ended the republican party. It demonstrated they could only go after the stupid vote. The racist vote. The anti-abortion at ALL costs vote. The NRA vote. Since the '60s, they gave us a criminal, a stupid tv actor, a sycophant CIA operative, his even stupider puppet son, and finally a total piece of treasonous shit.

    Look at the economy under all of them since the '50s. You should vote 100% democrat. Carter didn't take your guns. Clinton didn't take your guns. Obama didn't take your guns. And your taxes are high because reagan installed a conveyor for the nation's wealth to be sent straight to the top, and those sick bastards hoard and sequester it. That motherfucker is burning in hell for that.

  3. #23
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    Wow Eidetic! Tell us what you really think!

    You pretty much nailed it.

    The biggest problem our government has is unlimited funding for campaigns and lobbying; which are just nice words for total corruption.

    The Supreme Court decision "Citizens United" decided that corporations are people too! Even though they have no body, no head, no soul and are accountable to nothing. But don't worry! They made sure the rights of common folk like us were protected. You and I have the same exact right to donate $millions to any particular political cause we want.

    Meanwhile lobbyists dump untold amounts of money into the pockets of politicians and their families and then those same politicians create and pass laws that effect the stock and commodities markets that they are all heavily invested in.

    At least the Democrats seriously try to be progressive. Republicans want us all to go backwards (regress) to a false memory of better times that never existed.

    And since we are Americans, we have our collective heads up our asses about just about everything. So there is no way we will ever take a serious look at the governments of our allies to see how they might be doing things better.

    We wouldn't want to crush the American Dream! That's the one about hundreds of millions of us will someday rise up to be the head of a major corporation and be worth almost $200 Billion (as an individual) and never pay taxes.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    The biggest problem our government has is unlimited funding for campaigns and lobbying; which are just nice words for total corruption.

    The Supreme Court decision "Citizens United" decided that corporations are people too! Even though they have no body, no head, no soul and are accountable to nothing. But don't worry! They made sure the rights of common folk like us were protected. You and I have the same exact right to donate $millions to any particular political cause we want.


    Meanwhile lobbyists dump untold amounts of money into the pockets of politicians and their families and then those same politicians create and pass laws that effect the stock and commodities markets that they are all heavily invested in.


    You're automatically assuming this will always be used for manipulation. I have no delusions that there isn't a massive amount of corruption here but this can be a good thing, too. It needs to be revamped and it needs to have excessively tight checks and balances. There shouldn't be untold amounts of money. All of it should be tightly controlled, closing loop-holes. As far as backroom dealings and transfers of money that's off the books, that's always going to happen. It's been happening for a very long time ACROSS PARTY LINES.

    At least the Democrats seriously try to be progressive. Republicans want us all to go backwards (regress) to a false memory of better times that never existed.
    I will agree, MAGA was absolutely ridiculous. On the opposite end, blindly moving forward and calling it progress isn't always a good thing either. Democrats need to learn how to say "No" every now and then. They say yes to god damn everything and that opens doors for massive corruption. Example: This ridiculous high speed rail in my state. A project which has already lined plenty of pockets and cost the tax payers a fortune and still very little has been done. Progress? Yes. Good? HELL NO!

    You need to have less faith in your party. All of us do. This is what got us into this mess. A democrat will always vote democrat, regardless of who runs or what policies are put forth. Same with Republicans. We're too afraid to leave our parties, even when they make bad choices. I used to be Republican but I got tired of the bad choices that my party was making and they kept shitting on my more liberal ideals. I can't stand the idea of blindly moving forward because the sales pitch is "Progress!!!" while trampling over the rights of non-progressives, so, screw the democrats. We have to be able to call bullshit on our parties but no one is willing. If the same two big kids in the sandbox keep their cheerleaders, no one else will ever get to play with toys and we'll all continue to get sand in our eyes.

    And since we are Americans, we have our collective heads up our asses about just about everything. So there is no way we will ever take a serious look at the governments of our allies to see how they might be doing things better.
    BECAUSE WE'RE MARRIED TWO PARTIES!!!!! The Democrat and Republican parties only pitch you on who the candidates are. They don't have to pitch you on staying with the party. They know they have you. We're a country of fanboys. Not just fanboys but dichotomic fanboys. We're black or white on damn near everything; what phones we use, what computers we use, game systems... We claim to want to have choices but that is an illusion. I will say if flat out; you don't have a choice. Why? Because you are going to always go the same way, every time. Devo - "Freedom of choice is what you got. Freedom from choice is what you want."

    We wouldn't want to crush the American Dream! That's the one about hundreds of millions of us will someday rise up to be the head of a major corporation and be worth almost $200 Billion (as an individual) and never pay taxes.


    I agree with this to a degree but I will fight mass socialism at every turn. Wealth distribution goes way beyond this discussion and crosses multiple party lines.

    I am going to bow out of this conversation. It was enlightening but it shows that we have a very long way to go. Until we get out of the trenches and stop treating this like "Us vs Them... If you're not for us, you're against us" then this country will never figure it out.

    To the atrocity about to leave the White House, good riddance and I don't care if the door hits you on the way out. A disgusting waste of a human being and not because he's a Republican. I don't fault Republicans for voting for him. What choice did they have? None, because Americans, Republicans and Democrats, don't want a choice. We like the comforts of having our decisions made for us.

    I feel like I'm Donnie in this scene and the teacher represents the American sheep.
    Last edited by absolom7691; 01-11-2021 at 16:15.
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  5. #25
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    Elections are always decided by the people who don't claim any party affiliation. The same people who probably had nothing to do with choosing either of the candidates who would be the only two choices that have any chance of winning.

    Consider what could happen if we had several parties like the UK. Then the winner of an election can be chosen by 27% of only those people who bothered to vote. All that does is guarantee that the majority of people don't get who they wanted.

    The idea that both of our parties are basically the same is a lazy, bullshit cop-out reason for not having a more informed opinion.

    We need to stop thinking of our government as them. Our government is us.


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    Last edited by james; 01-11-2021 at 18:02.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by james View Post
    Consider what could happen if we had several parties like the UK. Then the winner of an election can be chosen by 27% of only those people who bothered to vote.
    This is a huge fear tactic by Republicans and Democrats. More parties means they become weaker. Those entrenched in their party laps up the fearmongering.

    This is also a tangent conversation but that's one of the reasons why I hate majority wins. I wish we could implement STV. More people would get representation and not just 50ish percent of the nation.

    The idea that both of our parties are basically the same is a lazy, bullshit cop-out reason for not having a more informed opinion.
    Which is your opinion because you're looking at it from the left and can't stand the idea that "that other party, the evil one" is lumped in with your righteous and good party. Step outside of both and look deeper. Both parties exist to serve themselves. Much like unions. They have expansive wealth, recruit from a pool of wealthy individuals, and are in business to make money and exercise power. To think otherwise is naive. Businesses are the same. They are not in business to provide people with anything. They're in business to make money and providing people with something is secondary. What little each of these parties get done is small and takes fucking forever.

    We need to stop thinking of our government as them. Our government is us.
    True, but we also need to think of us and not our party. Our party does not define us, our ideals do.
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  7. #27
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    ... á la Machiavelli: "Dividi e conquista!!"

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  8. #28
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    Reading this thread has reminded me of the somewhat heated thread that got moved to toxic waste, prior to Trumps presidency.
    I seem to recall that it was quite heated and Eric/Planters in particular was very vocal about the state of the nation/world and Trump.

    I don't think it'll happen, but it would be great to have a retrospective from some of the people and see if they still held the same views, with the benefit of hindsight.
    I know from the perspective of us non US folks it was a bit of a 'WTAF, these people do exist' moment, and I'm from the UK and we have Bojo and his supporters

    It seems such a short time ago really, but in that time we've seen a massive rise in false narratives and manipulation of people, Qanon, etc. Where will we be in the next 4 years I wonder?
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  9. #29
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    ... yes, i also remember that tread -- was and still am totally sad to see how "good" people left the boat

    Viktor
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  10. #30
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    I know why I am a Democrat. I can look at the track record of both parties over my entire lifetime and make a crystal clear distinction between the two. There may be a few bad apples here and there and a few gaffs within the ranks of the Dems, but in the long run just about everything good that our government has done was driven by the Democrats. Our economy always does better with a Democrat president and apart from an oval office blow job there hasn't really been any scandals or criminal activity that comes anywhere near what Republicans have done.

    You might want to tear it all down and start over, but that's not ever going to happen. I'd rather try to make it incrementally better. That might happen.

    As far as nothing getting done is concerned, we can lay the blame for that squarely on the shoulders of one man; Mich McConnel. He had the power to shut down anything he wanted and was a self avowed obstructionist. He's now no longer the Senate majority leader.

    Democrats have the House, the Senate and the presidency. The country is in bad shape right now on several fronts. Let's see what they can do about it in the next two years before the Republicans can figure out how to fuck that all up all over again.
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