Page 2 of 11 FirstFirst 123456 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 106

Thread: New Coldfire-based Networkable Embedded Laser Controller!

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,478

    Default

    I suggest that before anyone mocks anyone further, they search Google for [translate flags babelfish], then click images, then click a few of the now-easily-recogniseable flag images that turn up to look at what is a generic feature used in several places. I doubt Pangolin own a patent on the document.write() method or those flag images, or the standard Babelfish URL and JavaScript syntax.

    Emulating an idea isn't theft. Direct copying might be but the standard of proof should be higher than I saw here. A lot higher. What I saw could be construed as public libel and defamation. I might be silenced if Bill can provide legal proof that Pangolin originated the idea propagated by Babelfish and Altavista, but I suspect that none exists.

    I've made what could truly be a unique bit of JavaScript code on my own site, tucked away where no-one is even likely to notice (although some of those who have seen it have commented on its unusual ability). I know it's unique because of the long time I looked for it before deciding I had to invent it in the absense of anything like it. I couldn't even find help towards it on the expert sites for coding examples and such, short of basic descriptions of the methods I eventually chose to build my code with. It guarantees that no matter how the page is called, linked to or loaded, it ALWAYS indicates the actual page the visitor is on so long as the frameset is intact because that code links through the whole frameset even though it's extremely compact. If someone copied that I wouldn't mock, I'd probably ask them out of curiosity where they got it, but I'd be glad to see it put to good use.

    Obviously my last paragraph might easily be dismissed as irrelevant but not by me. Coming up with a really unique idea is usually likely to make a person want to see it propagated, not to guard it jealously and mock someone for using it just because they didn't ask.
    Last edited by The_Doctor; 10-14-2007 at 17:26.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Charleston, SC
    Posts
    2,147,489,446

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lasermame View Post
    Buffo:
    In relation to your serious 'reverse-engineering' allegation - firstly, there has not been any 'reverse-engineering' going on and suggest that you refrain from such accusations and may I also suggest that you perform some further research regarding my background with respect to laser controller hardware!
    A trivial amount of research reveals that you were once heavily involved with Pangolin, and now are not. (Not trying to make light of your own electronics knowledge, mind you. Just stating the fact that a relationship existed at one point. Yes, there are lots of little details here, but in the interest of brevity we'll leave it at that.)

    Coincidentally, you now release a controller that looks a lot like a Pangolin product and even shares *many* components and design features with the QM-2000, right down to the hard drive connector on the back (which doesn't have pins on your board I see, though the traces are there).

    My question (note: it was not an accusation but a question) of reverse engineering is a valid one. Despite your claims to the contrary regarding any reverse-engineering, you haven't addressed the obvious similarities between your product and Pangolin's. Would you care to elaborate on the subject?
    Actually Buffo, have *you* actually taken the initiative to design and implement any such controllers yourself?
    What is this tripe? It's completely irrelevant. I'm not in the business of designing laser show controllers. (For the record, I have not "taken the initiative to design and implement" a controller.)

    However, you are in the business, and as such you should be able to defend the development process of your product. Since you have chosen instead to ignore the issue and are now trying to change the subject, the logical conclusion is that you are hiding something.

    As to why some of the replies sound hostile to you (not just Bill's, but others too), ask yourself why you're not talking about your product, it's development, and it's features, and instead are trying to defend yourself against a perceived attack... (Hint: It's not normal for a new member - especially one with a new product to sell - to assume a defensive posture after only a few posts.)

    Several questions were asked about your product early on. None of them have been addressed. A few questions were raised about the similarity of your board to other Pangolin products. Those questions were also ignored. And now you want to complain that we're not being nice? How about some straight answers then? Ok - you did promise some specs in 2 weeks, but what about the other questions?

    We're mostly hobbyists here. We like to know how things work. (Even things that we may never actually purchase.) We talk about feature lists, pro's and con's, price points, etc. We're curious. Don't mistake that as an attack - it's who we are.

    If your product really is an all-original in-house design that offers clear benefits (either in terms of price or functionality), then let's talk about them. After all, we're talking about your innovative design here, right? You should be proud to talk about it. If you are offended by some of the questions, that's certainly your prerogative, but the best way to deflect that criticism is to answer the questions anyway. Sometimes an overly-inquisitive post may seem like an attack, but if your first instinct is to get defensive rather than answering the question, that raises suspicion.

    On the other hand, if you are *embarrassed* by some of the questions, that is another problem, and it's one that won't be solved by attacking the people asking the questions...

    Adam

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    7,067

    Talking


  4. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    6

    Default Reply to Adam (Buffo)

    Hi Adam,

    I have not posed on this forum before, so this my first time... (but I do read the posts with interest in regards to lasers and the sort.. so I joined up to reply to this thread...

    I was reading this thread in regards to that guy who has developed that new laser controller in Australia, yet I became very disheartened in regards to the responses - especially that of Bill Benner, and yourself.

    both of you have seemed to simply attack this guy for what reason ?..

    I have had an interest in regards to playing around with doing laser graphics, but the big problem is that there is little for the armature types in terms of a good quality (and inexpensive) laser controllers... now, when this guy came on and posted about a new controller, I was very interested..

    The problem is I have had a look at a number of controllers, and quite truthfully all of them seem to have corners cut in the design and virtually all of them need a host computer to work (I.E need to plug in).

    I have had a look at pangolin, but they are *very* expensive... Yes they seem to be the market leader... but in the past I felt that the business methods are similar to that of Microsoft - they think they are best... (may be true to some extent in regards to a good product).

    So enter this guy with the new controller.. my question to you is that you seem to be accusing him of copying or reverse-engineering another product.. where do you get your information to think this ??.. From what I see, this new controller looks nowhere near like the one that Pangolin has..

    As you say that this new board "shares *many* components and design features"... sorry, but I have read the pre-release on the website, and I see many differences and benefits over that of what pangolin offers..

    Also, bear in mind that Electronics (especially digital) design is similar is terms of how sections are combined - I beg to differ, but if you have a look at electronic datasheets, you will find very similar design concepts.. go figure..

    Now, I have had a look at your sight... I don't know who you are, but from what I can tell, is that you are simply someone who has connected together some components and say you understand about is - But, I really cannot see anything of reference in regards to your understanding of laser controllers or scanning systems - and this, you seem to take a jealous approach to others... and I take a disliking to people like yourself.

    For me personally, I think that you have not read the details on this new card and not even understand what the hell you are talking about.. and you have simply gone flat-out at accusing and discrediting someone who has had the innovation to come up with a new (and possibly improved product)... Its this very mentality and attacks on new things that really piss me off and one reason what I hate about this industry.. there is little innovative technologies because of the mentality that the laser display area is a 'little boys club' that only the inner circles know about the technical aspects - wake up to your self ... Its not just the Americans who now about this technology.

    Give the guy a break.. you may learn something in the process.. Just because Australia is far away or small, does not mean products coming from there are bad - quite the opposite... Now, if you are going to talk about copying a product or reverse engineering - this is what China and Taiwan are great at doing..

    I give a hell lot of credit to this guy.. it seems he has put his heart and (perhaps also great deal of money) into developing such a card - darn what I give to have some brains to do this... he should not be having to defend himself against you and your accusations (which I may add is defermation!).

    So I think Adam, that you are someone who lacks integrity and vision.. if you have to attack people like this - you are a disgrace to this community and this forum - and you give a bad name to this industry..

    My 5 cents worth

    Michael. S.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Orlando, FL - USA
    Posts
    1,770

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Doctor View Post
    I suggest that before anyone mocks anyone further, they search Google for [translate flags babelfish], then click images, then click a few of the now-easily-recogniseable flag images that turn up to look at what is a generic feature used in several places. I doubt Pangolin own a patent on the document.write() method or those flag images, or the standard Babelfish URL and JavaScript syntax.
    Thanks for your concern Doc. I know it comes from a place of integrity, and wanting to make sure that nobody is falsely accused on this forum.

    But there are some unique things about the flag images on the Pangolin site and how we launch Babelfish. I invite you to examine the file names, file sizes, and bit-by-bit data of the flags on Pangolin's site, with other sites and then you can make your decision as to where they might have come from. I know -- and can prove -- that the flags on the Pangolin site were generated by me using MS:Paint and then a secondary process that we use before publishing images.

    Anyway, when another site has the same exact flag images, having the same exact file names, and same exact feature set, including variable names used in the launching script -- even feature set that allows you to view in the original language, then it causes us to ask "hmmm".


    Quote Originally Posted by The_Doctor View Post
    Coming up with a really unique idea is usually likely to make a person want to see it propagated, not to guard it jealously and mock someone for using it just because they didn't ask.
    Oh, I wouldn't necessarily say that Doc... Imagine if you were in an industry for over 21 years, and most of what you created during that time was "propagated"... Sure, the first few hundred things that are "propagated" makes you giggle. After all, imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. But after the first few hundred things, eventually it just gets old...

    In any event, are you suggesting that it is OK for people to merely "propagate" the work of others without asking first?


    Quote Originally Posted by lasermame View Post
    In relation to your serious 'reverse-engineering' allegation - firstly, there has not been any 'reverse-engineering' going on and suggest that you refrain from such accusations and may I also suggest that you perform some further research regarding my background with respect to laser controller hardware!
    I agree with Rodney that anyone must be very careful with accusations, and I do believe that I myself have been very careful. Up until this point I have only asked questions.

    But I don't think people need to make accusations to come up with their own conclusions. After all, it is possible for two people on opposite sides of the world to come up with a "similar idea". But when the "similar idea" uses the same parts, in roughly the same locations and has the same concepts, I think people owe it to themselves to ask the question "hmmmm". That's all -- you don't have to accuse anyone. Just ask the question "hmmm"...



    Quote Originally Posted by lasermame View Post
    One genuine concern though Bill, over the years you appear to have consistently portrayed yourself in public space as a kind, caring, considerate and helpful individual...but if I am not mistaken, you seem to have taken an unwarranted and rather hostile attacking attitude in this thread towards me and possibly our product.
    Well thanks for your genuine concern Rodney . But would you please point to the hostile and attacking attitude that you have seen? Up until this post, the only things that I have done is ask questions and asked you to reveal, for the kind folks here on Photon Lexicon, where you have gotten your inspirations. Surely these are not hostile or attacking, are they?

    In any event, regarding my supposed public self-portrayal as "kind, caring, considerate and helpful", the kind folks here on Photon Lexicon can certainly make their own decisions. I believe that each of us earn our reputation in life, and I also believe that people are smart enough to see who is genuine and who is not.


    Quote Originally Posted by lasermame View Post
    I am (and I know others are also) somewhat curious to know as to why you have chosen to respond is such a seemingly unprofessional manner and what you expect to achieve from it?
    So are you saying that asking questions is unprofessional?

    What I expect to achieve is to get answers . After all, it could very well be that we have a true miracle here -- that you, or excuse me your "third party web-developer", magically had the same ideas, and did all of the same work, coincidentally naming the flag images the same names and stumbling onto the same file sizes and bit-by-bit data, using the same exact variables and calling methods, etc. And it could very well be that you have never seen a QM2000 in your life and all of your developments have truly been in a vacuum. After all, miracles do happen right? So to help me distinguish true miracles, I ask questions.

    That's all I am doing here is asking questions.

    Best regards,

    William Benner

    PS: We have got to get Spec to turn on the "show IP" feature on this forum...
    Last edited by Pangolin; 10-16-2007 at 05:10.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Charlotte, NC
    Posts
    1,125

    Default

    Ok IMC, i mean lasermame, whoops I mean msith..........

    If yall are not the same person then you are all closely related, anyhow, please just shut up. Even if you can prove that you are indeed a different person. Shut up all of you. I think my above statement was said simple enough

    And Michael. S. whoever the hell you are...... I think Adam owned you before you even typed out your mess of babel. He never mentioned anything about wanting to ever design a laser controller card but his "simplistic" thinking sure was right on with the comment of the IDE trace on the board. Think what you want about him but pretty much anyone on this board is going to take what you say and wipe their arse with it.

    And Bill, I agree with you partially. I dont like my IP to be public therefore I just want spec to take the IPs of the three people and do his comparison. If they are not the same then they are more than likely from the same country of origin or better yet, the last one hidden by a proxy.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    7,067

    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by msith View Post
    Hi Adam,

    I have not posed on this forum before, so this my first time...

    ...My 5 cents worth

    Michael. S.
    Welcome to PL.

    This may not be the best thread to "jump in on" as your first. I actually thought it was a lil "focused" spam for a second with the dual posting, now it is getting interesting...

    I was almost with you for a second, well, in questioning Bill's first post, not Adam's. The more I read and research, it does seem that their site does have a few similarities with Pangolin's, hmmm, their product does seem to have many similarities with the QM2000, hmmm, and this seller does seem to have a history with Pangolin, hmmm... Bill is just trying to get us to ask "why?". Same reason we wonder why IE is just like Netscape, well almost the same reason.
    It is all about perspective.

    (Hmmm, MS - Bill, Pangolin - Bill) You're not a clone are you Bill? You didn't buy a laser design system software from a guy in Seattle for 10K in the early 80's did you? Pretty it up and license it... never mind.


    I think Bill is trying very hard not to accuse when he may have a very valid reason to point his finger and maybe shout. Adam seems to be the one who is listening and searching for that validity, and finding it. You seem to be asking for proof... Adam, links?

    From my perspective, Adam has a great deal of knowledge and is always down to try and explain it to those of us who really don't understand it... yet. What site did you go to? Adam's looks to be WAY out dated... (from site) "My only green laser is this DPSS pointer."

    I also don't really see any accusing. The "reverse engineering" phrase is as close as I can find, which I feel was more aimed at confidentiality than buying something to copy it. (I could be wrong, it happens once or twice a week. ) Adam did ask some questions in the second post that have still gone unanswered. This does say a lot to some of us. It was bound to go down hill from there. I don't feel Adam was attacking anyone, and I hope you re-evaluate these recent post in this thread and other he has posted. His vision and integrity are one of the reasons I value this forum. Plus he goes all out to arrange a good meet.

    I hope you don't get discouraged about the forum because of this thread. Adam is the one of the best minds here and this should be taken as an intelligent inquiry and not a product or member flame. Most of us would have grinned and nodded to this and not thought much of it. Bill maybe be full of BS and be doing what you think, but Adam has no reason to and is doing some digging, for the rest of us, to find some truth. If this product was designed by someone who used to be associated with Pangolin, and just happens to share some design, functionality, and features as a Pangolin product, wouldn't you want to be sure the designer did

    Quote Originally Posted by msith
    ... put his heart and (perhaps also great deal of money) into developing such a card...
    as opposed to using a former associates heart and money before you bought it. There seems to be some history here that we are unaware of. I think Bill is merely hinting at it, Adam just happens to be the one who picked up on those hints and is smart enough to mine the data for the rest of us here in the community.

    So again, welcome, I hope this thread doesn't give anyone an overall outlook for the entire forum. While this thread is a little "sticky" st the moment, heated even, the truth will come out, and coherent light shall be seen. If anything look at the spandex thread...

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Charlotte, NC
    Posts
    1,125

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by allthatwhichis View Post
    Welcome to PL.
    Your too nice allthat

    Its people like that I can have fun with and take my stress and squeeze the stress ball a little bit with. Kinda like telemarketers. I love when they call cause I can raise hell with them and they take it so long as I show just a little interest.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Essex, England
    Posts
    798

    Default

    Regarding the Babble fish thing.......I used to use it on my site untill I realized how shite the translations are. and I used to do the trick with the moving the form border up so that it looks like your still originating from www.MYSite.com.

    Anyone who thinks they have come up with some uniqiue javascript is surely mistaken and should not try and take credit for things that people have been doing for years...get over it!

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Orlando, FL - USA
    Posts
    1,770

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by laserLips View Post
    ... so that it looks like your still originating from www.MYSite.com.
    If you are trying to imply that we stole features from "MySite.com", you're barking up the wrong tree... I have never seen MySite.com in my life.

    In any event, I can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that all of our developments were done by us, and would be happy to provide the email thread in which myself and our web programmer organically developed the concepts and code that we use.

    Quote Originally Posted by laserLips View Post
    Anyone who thinks they have come up with some uniqiue javascript is surely mistaken and should not try and take credit for things that people have been doing for years...get over it!
    Well, first let me say that we always give credit where credit is due. As one small example of proof: when we came out with our implementation of what we call "Image Masking", and presented it to the ATW portion of ILDA, we gave credit to Laser Animation -- our arch-rival at that time -- for inventing the concept before we did. This credit was given IN WRITING, at the bottom of our write-up for that feature.

    We didn't have to do this -- our implementation was far different, and far easier than theirs, giving different results. And of course all code was developed by us. But this goes to show the level of integrity we have -- even if we implement something ourselves that is far different from someone else who did it first, we still give credit to those who did it first, whether or not they are our arch-rival!! (Incidentally, I have never seen another company in this industry be so truthful -- and also, we have a good relationship with Laser Animation now. Integrity pays its own rewards...)

    Second, I think it is foolish to say that nobody can come up with a unique JavaScript. Take a look at these pages:
    sms.pangolin.com/bigred2
    sms.pangolin.com/vmu
    sms.pangolin.com/barco

    (I can't show you the really cool thing we did for FOX because it was done for them internally...)

    These are various Java and JavaScript things we did that are related to doing SMS messaging on the web, related to our SMS product: http://www.pangolinSMS.com

    Of course, all JAVA code was written by Pangolin, and I doubt you will find it anywhere else. So yes, we do think that we have come up with a unique Javascript. Lots of unique Javascripts actually .

    In any event, surely you are not saying that "there is no such thing as a unique Javascript" and therefore it is OK for people to take the Javascripts (or other similar items) from one person's web site and use it on another, with no permission being asked and no credit being given, are you?


    Best regards,

    William Benner
    Last edited by Pangolin; 10-15-2007 at 01:30.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •