Audience Scanning??

[mixedgas]

[QUOTE=dsli_jon;40500]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-is63goeBgc

Damn, better then the origional starwars.

BTW, guys aiming beam on a argon photocoagulator is 3 mW on domestic units and up to 7 on export (those are measured numbers from my trusty powerpen) and at THE SPOT SAME size as the treatment beam, and nobody reports damage from a aiming beam.

Surgeons start at around 250 mW and work their way up if needed.

Steve

[Pitopito]

It is not my intention to be disrespectful to anybody here, but I found a bit weird that you are litterally stabbing each other about how to avoid eye injuries on people with altered pupil diameter (due to the toxic poisons that are taking over the weekends).
I mean that I feel sad that while you are taking so much care on this extremely important argument, the audience looks almost authorized to bleach their brains and flushing thousands of neurons down the drain, self inflicting "cumulative" and "permanent" (I'm quoting your words) damages to their I.Q.
There is no doubt that everybody here are concerned about safety. I just wanted to widen the beams to illuminate not just the macula, but also the importance of the brain beside. A 20/20 sight is useless on an overdosed corpse.
Peace

(sorry for my bad english and my OT considerations)
Luciano

[gottaluvlasers]

luciano-

while i agree with you 100% on the dangers of the drugs (obviously). I think the point is that the AUDIENCE member MADE that decision to take that "XYZ" drug. If they want to be stupid and/or careless to THEMSELVES, thats THEIR perogative!!

If I walked into a club and was injected unknowingly with some drug, NOW a crime has been committed. i guess its kinda the same with the illegal and/or against regualtions audience scanning. (dont worry guys- im NOT arguing FOR or AGAINST the audience scanning!! lol...) If a careless laser operator is audience scanning with DANGEROUS limits of lasers and without the proven safety measures of the *APPROVED AUDIENCE SCANNING PARAMETERS* the audience member has no choice BUT to be "scanned." and has no choice but to be put in harms way. Also, most "Average joes" dont know the dangers associated with high intensity lasers. They have no choice (well, to a point) but to be put into that dangerous situation. On the other hand, those wide eyed drugged up club patrons made their own careless choices to drug themselves up and be a harm to themselves. Laser operators dont need to follow suit.

just my 2 cents.
-Marc

[dave]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-is63goeBgc

[/I]

peace...

- J

Are they fighting with lasers, or florescent tubes in that vid?

[Tribal Existance Prod.]

Those photo's are off the hook....look at those people..very crazy eye balls.....I just always saw a huge ocean of people from the stage I never looked at their eyes that close..wow thats nuts....no wonder they keep booking the laser and lighting professionals.....


Marcus

[Tribal Existance Prod.]

Are they fighting with lasers, or florescent tubes in that vid?

Your a very funny guy with that youtube video....I just had to laugh at your timing....LOL

Marcus

[tocket]

Here's a picture that will speak for itself about the situation in Sweden. Audience scanning is explicitly forbidden, but since the rest of Europe does it I guess the clubs here feel it's just another stupid law.

I would feel ok about potentially exposing myself to levels slightly above MPE once every few weeks if I knew that the club owners had good lasers with feedback control and other safety measures. However, cheap Chinese lasers are just plain scary and there's no easy way to tell what they're using.

[godfrey]

Does that NECESSARILY make me smarter than you? I would say probably but not necessarily...

Bill, I'm just going to say yes to this one. There is no debating it.




By the way - I'm going to have to get this thread on audio book format or something and listen to it during the day.

It has been some very interesting reading to say the least. Since I *plan* on starting a laser show company in the next couple of years I feel it necessary to understand all aspects of this industry. Starting from the ground up I want to be doing everything I possibly can to run a safe and legal show.



Phil


please note: usage of the word *plan* in asterisks pretty much means I'm waiting for my wife's blessing or something..... Maybe I should take her to one of these illegal shows and blind her so she can't see all the new things (toys) I buy throughout the year. (yes, I'm kidding).

[Dr Laser]

Here's a picture that will speak for itself about the situation in Sweden. Audience scanning is explicitly forbidden, but since the rest of Europe does it I guess the clubs here feel it's just another stupid law.

I would feel ok about potentially exposing myself to levels slightly above MPE once every few weeks if I knew that the club owners had good lasers with feedback control and other safety measures. However, cheap Chinese lasers are just plain scary and there's no easy way to tell what they're using.

It's nothing compared to this. This is cheap ass China RG laser with 5k step motors.

[UV99LASER]

That last picture is proof of my entire argument.
His pupils are obviously bigger than 7mm. He is high and clueless.

It is on the operator to know their audience. If you are planning on say doing a rave party, Pink Floyd or a Dead concert there is a 100% chance your audience is on drugs. Everyone knows this as it is common knowledge.

Knowing this it would be unethical to use a number such as 7mm in setting the MPE limits for laser effects used for these shows. Using the "internationally accepted" number of 7mm on a drug soaked audience would potentially expose the audience to up 4 times the MPE IF they had pupils larger than 7mm and IF the effects were set at or very near MPE.
I personally have seen people with pupils close to 15mm.
Here is the math see for your self.


Area for 7mm pupil = 3.5 x 3.5 x 3.14= 38.465 square MM. Standard MPE.

Area for 10mm pupil = 3.5 x 3.5 x 3.14= 78.500 square MM. Over 2 X MPE.

Area for 13mm pupil = 3.5 x 3.5 x 3.14= 132.665 square MM. Over 3 X MPE.

Area for 15mm pupil = 7.5 x 7.5 x 3.14= 176.625 square MM. Over 4 X MPE.

If the audience wants to wash their brains with drugs that is fine.
We as ethical laserists do not need to blind them in the process.
If you have no ethics then stick to the "internationally accepted" numbers and blast away.

It is the laser operators responsibility for the safe operation of the laser system.
It is not the responsibility of the laser owner or the person who set up said laser system for the safe operation of the laser system.
That responsibility is 100% on the laser operator.

It is true that aiming beam on a argon photocoagulator is 3 mW on domestic units and up to 7 on export units. The overlooked point is the spot the beam is aiming at is about to be vaporized.
The patient will never report an injury from a 3 to 7mw aiming beam since the spot the 3 to 7 mw beam was aiming at is gone after surgery.

The whole point of laser surgery is to ablate(permanently remove) or cauterize tissue (To burn or sear with a cautery).
Laser surgery is 100% destructive. Treatment is realized through removal of tissue or cession of bleeding.
Skipp