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Thread: To the laser show software companies

  1. #11
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    Bill,

    I don't think it's the player that needs to be created as much as a standard show playback format that ANY player could play. If all laser show creation software was able to output a standard file format that encapsulates all of the frames and music in one tidy package (or at least references them as external files) then just think of the number of shows people would be able to play.

    Right now you guys have your own show formats, MediaLas and Showtacle have theirs... I am not even sure of all of the other companies... then there's the free stuff like PopelScan that has their own format. Between the lot of us on this forum we probably have created several different shows and we can't share them because our software isn't compatible. A lot of us can play ILDA files and that's great but we all can export our shows to ILDA.

    I'm not saying that you or any other company should abandon your own formats, especially if your hardware can do onboard processing, but it sure would be nice if there was a common file format for export when desired, even if in some cases some of the company specific features were lost in the export.

    I can't really name a cost because I am not asking for any hardware or software package. I'm just asking for a standard file format that all software can produce and play.

    But, if I had it my way, each and every DAC sold would come with some sort of player software that could simply play back a show (in the new standard show format) that had already been created. Or, maybe just a simple driver - then different people could create their own players if they wanted. Then, if companies want to sell show creation software then thats fine and dandy. They could make it generic so it simply outputs the new standard format and would play on any hardware - or they could save in their own format that will only work on their own hardware (for security purposes or whatever.)

    Anyway, those are my ideas. You are in a better position to know whether or not what I say makes sense or not since you live it. But, I'd like to hear your opinion. Obviously I am coming at this more from the hobbyist point of view and I am guessing that you don't make any money from us. But, it seems like there could be a way to support us without having to really do too much.

    Also, I'll be in Orlando Jan 23-Jan 26. The only free time I have is the morning of Jan 24th. If you'll be around I'd love to drop by and chat for a bit and see your stuff. I'd wouldn't expect much - even 15 minutes would be nice. And if you don't have the time that's ok, too.

  2. #12
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    Hey Carmangary, just thought I would add a little something to consider. There is at least one company that I know, that sells shows that are great to watch. The price varies, however is usually around the $200 mark per show. Which is really good considering the quality and time it takes to make a great show. Lets look at this conservatively, lets say they are $50 a show. And, lets say that over the course of a year or two, you end up purchasing about 25 different shows. Which, really is not very many. Ok, so, you've already dropped $1250 in show material, plus whatever a simple playback device would cost. Per Bill's note, $100. So now its up to around $1350, again, a very conservative estimate. For this price you have 25 shows and a simple playback device. Well, for just a few bucks more, you get over 100 shows, plus 300,000 frames to make more shows with, the ability to play, edit and create new shows. Man, I telling you, there just isn't any other way around it. For $1500 the QM2K is the best deal around. If you could make it to one of these meetings over here on the east coast, you'd be sold...

  3. #13
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    Here is my scenario: 100s of users begin getting into the laser projector hobby as prices drop. Some of them create shows, some of them don't. Most shows probably aren't that great but some probably will be. And, everyone shares with each other. The price? Free.

    Do you remember back before there were MP3s and people used to make MOD files? There were tons of them and they were all free. Look at how MySpace and YouTube are booming.

    I'm talking about the hobbyist model, not the "for purchase" model. And once prices of hardware gets a little lower that's where we will be. Hobbyists aren't going to pay for shows. They are going to make their own and share them amongst other hobbyists for free. And there needs to be a common format for them. The software companies need to get on board or someone will do it for them and they'll be playing catch up to compete with the little guys who are having all the fun.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by carmangary View Post
    Here is my scenario: 100s of users begin getting into the laser projector hobby as prices drop. Some of them create shows, some of them don't. Most shows probably aren't that great but some probably will be. And, everyone shares with each other. The price? Free.

    Do you remember back before there were MP3s and people used to make MOD files? There were tons of them and they were all free. Look at how MySpace and YouTube are booming.

    I'm talking about the hobbyist model, not the "for purchase" model. And once prices of hardware gets a little lower that's where we will be. Hobbyists aren't going to pay for shows. They are going to make their own and share them amongst other hobbyists for free. And there needs to be a common format for them. The software companies need to get on board or someone will do it for them and they'll be playing catch up to compete with the little guys who are having all the fun.
    yeah man you hit the nail on the head nuff said

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by carmangary View Post
    Do you remember back before there were MP3s and people used to make MOD files? There were tons of them and they were all free. Look at how MySpace and YouTube are booming.
    I shared this enthusiasm for laser shows when I first got started. The problem (which I didn't truly understand until recently) is that in order for the hobbyist community to be able to produce large volumes of enjoyable content, the community needs to be above a certain critical mass.

    In the computer demo scene of the late 80's and early 90's that critical mass was reached, and the result was the FLOOD of great content available for all sorts of platforms. (From the IBM PC, to the Amiga, the Mac, the C=64, and even the Atari ST.) I still listen to music mods that were created back in that era and released to the public domain.

    However, with regard to laser shows - that critical mass hasn't been reached yet. One factor that may be holding us back is the lack of a common show format, and any work towards a standard laser show format (using ILDA for frame files but some other format for effects and timeline events) will certain help the cause. But even if such a standard, public format for laser shows existed, there are other barriers that are currently limiting the size of the community. (Largely, these barriers are economic in nature.)

    Consider that even with the vibrant community we have here on PL, we only have a handful of hobbyists that are doing any real programming with regard to laser shows. If this were 1990, and PL was a BBS devoted to the demo scene, we'd have dozens of people submitting their work for the approval of the group.

    What we need is another 100,000 laser show enthusiasts / hobbyists! Unfortunately, with hardware prices where they are, I don't think that's likely to happen in the next 10 years. (Laser hardware isn't getting cheaper at the rate that computers are!)

    Still, I see your point. A way to save show data in a common format would be nice. The only real problem I see is that the software companies will need to be careful with regard to their existing content. They don't want to have to release all that into the public domain! So their software will need to support both formats, and there needs to be a way to prevent the user from opening a show in the native format and then saving it in the public format. (Pangolin has already solved this with their secure file format, but I'm sure it cost them a lot of money to develop that system. Not sure if other companies could afford that or not...)

    Adam

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by carmangary View Post
    Bill,

    I don't think it's the player that needs to be created as much as a standard show playback format that ANY player could play. If all laser show creation software was able to output a standard file format that encapsulates all of the frames and music in one tidy package (or at least references them as external files) then just think of the number of shows people would be able to play.
    Well, first, I am not sure that there would be many more shows than there are today -- at least, not many more QUALITY shows. I will explain my answer in a few paragraphs.

    But first let me point out another HUGE problem with this. The problem is -- Piracy. Sadly, this same problem exists with MP3 files.

    What I mean is this. As mentioned by David and others, we include a huge number of shows and frames with our software. And (for the most part -- unlike other software vendors), we make legitimate deals with the producers of these frames and shows. These deals have costed Pangolin hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years, and these deals often involve agreements that Pangolin will protect and defend the authors' intellectual property rights.

    As I have written in other posts, in recent years, Pangolin and also around six other laser show companies have been involved as prosecutors in intellectual property infringement law suits where offending companies (mostly unscrupulous software vendors) have distributed our shows along with their software (and along with the shows of many other people as well). When we find out about these things, we take the offenders to court and win. But -- having been involved in a number of these suits, I can tell you that it often takes over a year to accomplish the full prosecution, and even though the losing company has to pay the winning company's attorney's fees along with monetary damages -- it is still a costly and timeconsuming process.

    For this reason, I have a bad taste in my mouth when I think about "universal formats". I am sure other companies also have this same kind of thoughts. In fact -- as a further illustration -- there are companies who won't even send laser-formatted material to ILDA (an organization which surely would never make unauthorized use of the material) for the purpose of Awards judging. Instead, these companies send their material in video.

    We could get into the topic of "Digital Rights Management", but, unfortunately, in order to create a standardized "universal format" with DRM -- the DRM method would necessarily have to be widely known, essentially counteracting the whole purpose of having DRM to begin with.

    So really that is the core and fundamental problem with such a universal format, and this is one reason why we are dubious of the concept.

    Another reason is because (**CONTROVERSIAL PARAGRAPH ALERT**) I can take a very opinionated stance and say that Pangolin is driving this industry. What I mean is that concepts and technologies that we developed in the past, have magically showed up on other platforms, usually years after we develop them. But my overall point is this: Later this year, you will see something coming from Pangolin that will basically change the way people create, perform, and think about laser shows. Although I won't say too much about this technology right now, I will say that we have some brand new concepts which use a VERY DIFFERENT format and data concept, when compared with what people have been doing up until now. And this is the second reason we are not very interested in "universal" formats -- because we don't want to dumb-down our new technology, to the lowest common denominator, and to the point where it would be compatible with what everyone else is doing. All of this might sound like a bold statement, but only because it is. Just wait until you see what we have in store for laser show creation in 2008...

    And now, let me get back to my point when I said that I don't think there would be many more QUALITY shows with a "universal format". If you study this industry, and indeed other similar industries, what you find is that one single thing drives the highest creativity and the best shows, and that one single thing is money. The top shows in this industry (and in the movie business and in the music business) are only produced because of the amount of money involved. For example, the movie THE MATRIX cost a whole lot of money to produce. The money spend is an investment, and is only spent if there is a good bet that they will make their money back. If people just freely distributed the movie and anybody anywhere could play back THE MATRIX for free, with no "money" flowing to the producers of THE MATRIX, then the producers would not be very interested in making more movies. And sure, there are lots of creative people in the world, but without HIGHLY talented people and a whole lot of money involved in the production, what you wind up with is the likes of what's on YOU TUBE -- mildly entertaining, but by no means in the same class as THE MATRIX.

    So a truly "universal format" will not make possible the proliferation of very high quality material, because the producers will not have any guarantee that they would make the same money as they do with secure formats such as the Pangolin Lasershow Designer Secure (LDS) file format. What a "universal format" MIGHT!! promote is YOU TUBE like laser shows, which might be mildly entertaining, and then again, might not too...

    What I would rather see is (**ANOTHER CONTROVERSIAL PARAGRAPH ALERT**) one single FAIR company producing a product that everyone can afford, and that the vast majority of show producers use anyway. This would accomplish precisely what it is that you are trying to accomplish -- a large amount of shows available to a lot of people. I have just such a company in mind, and if I think about it long enough, the name of that company might occur to you as well .

    With all of that having been written, let me say that, even though the ILDA format was never intended for reproduction of complete shows, it CAN be used for that purpose, AS LONG AS it is well-communicated as to the sample rate that the ILDA file is created, and AS LONG AS the software or system playing back the show can accurately reproduce that sample rate, the music and show material will stay in sync.


    Quote Originally Posted by carmangary View Post
    Also, I'll be in Orlando Jan 23-Jan 26. The only free time I have is the morning of Jan 24th. If you'll be around I'd love to drop by and chat for a bit and see your stuff. I'd wouldn't expect much - even 15 minutes would be nice. And if you don't have the time that's ok, too.
    Give us a call at 1-800-PANGOLIN. We would love to have you stop by the office.

    Best regards,

    William Benner

  7. #17
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    I kind of expected your response because that is pretty much what I would want if I was running the leading laser show hardware/software company, too. So, although I think your attitude is perfect in regards to running your business, I don't think it is ideal for the laser community as a whole.

    The laser community will benefit more from the decoupling of hardware, software, and shows because it will allow people who are hardware specialists to only worry about hardware. And software people can worry about software. And the show people can just worry about making shows and can use the best software that is available - or if certain packages are better at some things than others, they can use them all.

    Your approach reminds me a lot of the Apple iPod in the way they have iTunes, and iPod, and their own DRM music format. It works OK for some people - but there are a whole lot more people out there enjoying their music in MP3 format on cheaper devices.

    So, I respect Pangolin for it's quality products and your desire to kick butt and take over the market. But as a consumer, that worries me because in the long run it would only mean that Pangolin would be a monopoly.

    Of course, on the other hand, you are the only one that has responded to this (and I know there are representatives from other companies on here) so that does give me hope that you are at least listening and willing to discuss things.

    Anyway, I look forward to seeing you in Orlando.

  8. #18
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    I'd like to add that, in the highly unlikely event that we did end up with a monopoly in the laser show industry, Pangolin would be one monopoly that (like Google) I think I could live with.

    Adam

  9. #19
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    It seems that the LAFreak discounted package is at least a nod in the direction of lower cost, wide personal availability software, but again, a closed file format.

    Open format documentation would be a first step towards universal format compatibility, because then a translator could be written. This would allow software creators to innovate and create new, more capable formats every few years (as William above), but the shows would still be portable in some sense, even if translating into a different format causes some loss of functionality, the basic vectors and intensities and timings would remain. Yet, there is little or no format documentation available. Releasing such documentation would have no negative sales impact to the publisher, but still we will probably not see it happen, due to copyright and value concerns. The more difficult good content is to get, the more valuable it is in the hands of the show warehouse. Simple supply and demand.

    Riya, at least from a hardware perspective, has taken open standards to heart with its freely available interface API documentation.. which allows its hardware to be more easily integrated into software 'players' and show designers such as LDS (laser design studio). One must wonder, however, if they would continue to have an open API if they also had a well regarded top-notch designer/player software package for sale.

    So, while you and I may see the benefit to open formats and documentation, to a salesman there is little benefit. In the end, as with Linux when it was starting, a player/designer may come along with open hardware and software and format documentation, and this in itself may be seen one of its greatest advantages over the competition. Till then, may statua quo persevero.

  10. #20
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    Hello PhotonLexicon,

    There is definitely a need for an open show file format, and it is principally important that such a format is ratified by the ILDA, not owned by any single company.

    The existing ILDA format is close to what is required, though very outdated. As carmangary suggested, a revision could remove the now-redundant features, add the now-required features and use an easily-parsed file format (e.g. XML). The details of such a revision should be the result of a more formal submission and committee process, which could be facilitated by the ILDA.

    This format would not be a competitor to any existing proprietary or secure formats. Proprietary and secure formats will still be required for internal use and copyrighted shows. An updated open format would be most valuable to non-commercial developers and users interested in creating and distributing public domain shows. However, it would be advantageous for commercial developers to support a revised ILDA format, just as they do the existing one.

    Kind regards,

    sonaluma

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