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Thread: To the laser show software companies

  1. #41
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    Cool

    I agree that an open laser show format would be nice. However, Bill Benner has a point... You *can* use the ILDA file format to export an entire show. Sure, you get a very large series of frames, and there is a lot of duplication, but it works. So long as you specify a frame rate and a scan rate (which can be included in a simple text file), anyone can play back the show exactly as it was created.

    To borrow Marc's analogy - if I whip up an audio composition using Acid or Reason, I can send the relatively small track info file to someone else that has the same software (and the same audio loop files) and he can re-create the song I composed. But if I want to sent my composition to someone that doesn't have Acid (or Reason), then I need to export the song as a .wav file and send it that way. Sure, the file size is a lot larger, but the other guy can still play it.

    The real problem with a common show format (one that includes both frame data and effects) is that there may be certain effects that are supported on some controllers (or software packages) that are not supported on others. Likewise, there may be different ways to accomplish the same effect, again depending on the controller or the software. (Consider the wide variety of abstract generators, or the Alphalite's "sine" format, which is unique to that controller...)

    Then there's the whole digital rights management issue. Copyright infringement can be a serious problem, and developing an open file format that still respects the content owner's copyright is not going to be easy.

    Given these limitations, I can see why ILDA was chosen as the standard. Yeah, it's cumbersome to export an entire show as a series of frames (you end up with some very large files!) but it *does* work...

    Still, I have to admit that it *would* be nice to have an open show format. I just don't think we're going to see one any time soon.

    Adam
    Last edited by buffo; 01-11-2008 at 13:17.

  2. #42
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    There have been a lot of lessons learned from when the ILDA standard was first created. And currently, it doesn't support what is needed for a show. It CAN be used if extra information is give, but so can 1000 excel spreadsheets containing x,y,rgb values. As a programmer, I don't want to use either of them for my shows, because there are much better ways of doing things. I guess there are forward looking people and then there are those who think things are OK as they are. The forward looking people chose HDTV, and it took forever to get it rolling due to the people who didn't want to change. Think about it.

    Copyright issues are something to be dealt with but it should be up to the companies to figure that out without preventing the exchange of information when it is desired. Currently, the companies are failing at this. It is only them that are to blame.

    Your point about effects is a good one. I know how to handle that and have mentioned it in other threads. Not going to get into it again due to lack of time.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by andy_con View Post
    there are lots of sites that sell shows/frame but they are silly money
    Its easy to say they are silly money, but consider the time that goes into making all the animations on a CD, and the limited sales a CD might have..
    KVANT Australian projector sales
    https://www.facebook.com/kvantaus/

    Lasershowparts- Laser Parts at great prices
    https://www.facebook.com/lasershowparts/

  4. #44
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    Hi Adam,

    Thanks for echoing my concerns. Most people promulgating some kind of universal standard have only trumped up the obvious benefits, but really haven't addressed my concerns:

    1) The absolute best show companies (and even mediocre companies) will never export their shows to a format that can not be protected.

    2) There are (many?) laser software packages that don't even export to ILDA. What is to make anybody think that they will support yet another format?

    3) I keep saying it, but people keep ignoring me (or overlooking what I have written). Tomorrow's laser shows (made with Pangolin software) will not look like today's laser shows (made with anybody's laser software). I won't tell you what we are doing, or how, or why, but I have figured out a way to discuss the impact.

    There will be those who remember when Pangolin and Lightspeed co-invented raster frames for laser, in 1995. This was then greatly improved by us in 1999 as part of our LD2000 system.

    From around 1992 until perhaps 2000 or so, ADATs were used as a universal storage and playback mechanism (i.e. something very much akin to what you guys are talking about here). BUT, what we found was, raster laser frames from our LD2000 system basically could not be recorded on ADAT without severe degradation. For an example of the effect, take a look at the following web page:
    http://www.pangolin.com/LD2000/adat_vs_direct.htm

    So -- in other words -- this universal laser show recording and playback mechanism could not be used to playback new style of laser shows (in that case, raster).

    The next big thing coming from Pangolin isn't raster. But it is something new. Basically, a new way of controlling the laser beam. And I can tell you with 1000% certainty that it can't be played back to an EasyLase DAC. (I mention EasyLase only as one vivid example, after what we saw at a previous FLEM meeting -- perhaps Buffo will comment, or point to a previous PL post). The hardware just isn't prepared to playback what we have coming, just as ADAT wasn't prepared to playback what we had coming in 1999.

    At Pangolin, we are always thinking five to ten years ahead, and we have known what's been coming for a very long time. As such, we have prepared our hardware to control lasers in this new way. But no other hardware can...

    So, in other words, all of the universal formats in the world won't help playback these new-style laser shows. There are inherent hardware limitations that people are up against, for what will be, new-style laser shows. Even if we could convert our new-style laser shows into old-style for playback on the likes of EasyLase, the end-result would be similar to what you saw in the ADAT pictures. Basically, it looks like crap... As I said, I don't want to dumb-down our new-style laser shows to run on an old format and old hardware. Neither will any of our users...

    So you can re-invent ADAT if you want. There's certainly nobody stopping you. But don't be surprised if it isn't adopted as widely as you might expect... After all -- ADAT was truly universal, and it was like Switzerland (neutral) since no laser company made that device. But, ADAT didn't have DRM, eventually couldn't playback the most advanced laser shows (i.e. raster), and in ADAT's hey-day, there were only 250 in use for laser display applications. As a reminder, there are currently over 9000 Pangolin users alone... so even in ADAT's hey-day, it was a far cry from the number of one vendors' laser show systems alone...

    An old university professor of mine used to say "Student, Teach Thyself". Some people have to spend the time on something before the answers become evident. The answers are evident to me, but only because I've been in this industry for 22 years, and my opinions are based on 22 years of "Teaching Thyself". But if yall want to spend your time re-inventing ADAT, be my guest!


    Best regards,

    William Benner

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
    Basically, a new way of controlling the laser beam. And I can tell you with 1000% certainty that it can't be played back to an EasyLase DAC.
    Years ago when I had a more ideal view on technology, I made an assumption about how laserbeams were controlled. To my surprise they were point controlled - and not really vector controlled. With point control (position vector control) there will allways be with a 1 dimensional resolution along the line.

    What made sense to me then, was velocity vector control of a laser beam to get rid of the resolution. I tried to that for a speaker scanner and later a home built moving coil galvo with a feedback sensor. But the LPT DAC I built would always introduce inconsistent timing. What seems conceptually simple has many implications for implementation. As a result my understanding grew of why `we' still write discrete points to an analog system. Had to let that idea go and buy Easylase some time laster because I was really into it for the creativity and not as much engineering.

    My guess is that Pangolin is going to introduce true velocity vector control over the laser beam. So no more point data but geometry date needs to be sent to the dac and stored on disk. (I'm sure that a new proprietary format will be created for it but SVG is the open format. )

    Hope to see (quasi*)resolutionless control of laser graphics soon, it wil really do justice to what engineering is all about.


    *quasi because there will alwasy be a DAC somewhere and a limit on data rate but given the high point speeds already possible it will be resolutionless to the user.

  6. #46
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    So, new Pangolin stuff is going to obsolete all of the current hardware like EasyLase and Moncha? Yea, that's going to make things a LOT more compatible. Just what we need, a new format that doesn't even work with anything.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by carmangary View Post
    Just what we need, a new format that doesn't even work with anything.

    But, it'll hopefully work with the 9000+ Pangolin systems

    Jem
    Quote: "There is a theory which states that if ever, for any reason, anyone discovers what exactly the Universe is for and why it is here it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another that states that this has already happened.”... Douglas Adams 1952 - 2001

  8. #48
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    carman gary wrote
    So, new Pangolin stuff is going to obsolete all of the current hardware like EasyLase and Moncha?
    I dont understand you buddy .... of course it wont make other formats obsolete ... if ford introduce a new car that has better steering ... better road handling .... does that make all other cars obsolete ?

    what it does do is make other manufacturers improve their products

    me thinks that you have got your " lets have a dig at Bill " hat on today

    all the best ..... Karl

  9. #49
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    I'm just being realistic. Let's say Pangolin does introduce this new technology soon. If the cost is higher than current products then it's pointless to this discussion because no one is going to buy it except for the people who want to be on the cutting edge. That certainly isn't me or anyone that I am thinking about when I am talking about a common format. If the cost is lower than current products, then people might start buying it. But, that just throws another wrench into the problem I have been trying to solve.

    If Pangolin wants to develop new and better technology that's fine and dandy. We'll all benefit from it eventually. But for Pangolin to come in and say that there is no point to create a common format for the existing software/hardware base because their new technology is going to change everything is just ridiculous and insulting. It is obvious that Pangolin is the enemy in my crusade to get the ball rolling for easy exchange of shows among hobbyists.

  10. #50
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    Gary,

    It seems like you are waiting for something to happen here. If you want to change something then just do it. Nobody is going to make any commitment if things are vague. Define your new format, build it into Spaghetti and publish the details on the format. If it makes sense what you are doing you will have a following. Your greatest enemies will be initial complexity: no one will get it right and revisions: no one will keep up.

    cheers,
    Z.

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