To the laser show software companies

[Zoof]

if ford introduce a new car that has better steering ... better road handling .... does that make all other cars obsolete ?

nahhh, not if ford does it

[carmangary]

Gary,

It seems like you are waiting for something to happen here. If you want to change something then just do it. Nobody is going to make any commitment if things are vague. Define your new format, build it into Spaghetti and publish the details on the format. If it makes sense what you are doing you will have a following. Your greatest enemies will be initial complexity: no one will get it right and revisions: no one will keep up.

cheers,
Z.

I already gave up on waiting for the existing companies to do anything. I spoke to two already and they basically said the same thing; that they were worried people would export their shows and they would be pirated. They obviously are going under the business model that their library of existing shows adds value to their product.

So, I am forging head making my software a lot better so that it can create shows as good or better than some of the existing stuff. I can say this, I will blow Moncha and Mamba Black out of the water. I don't know about Pangolin since I have never seen it. Shows created with my stuff will be exportable to ILDA format. So, even if someone has Mamba Black or Moncha they can still play shows created by my software. But most importantly to me, the guys building homebrew DACs won't have to buy software.

I'll have my own native format so that shows can be distributed and edited if desired. I don't expect it to be a common format, but I'll certainly allow companies to use it if they wish via an import function or whatever.

We'll see what happens.

[nanoWatt]

I admire that you are putting this kind of dedication into your work. I don't have a projector, so it really would be hard for me to add anything.

However, there are a few things that might be good for your software:

1. Allow the option for add-ins, so that people can develop their own plugins for more effects.
2. You could charge a small fee for certain features, or charge for support like some companies do, to at least get paid some for your work.
3. Are you using C++ as your language? Or is it .NET? Windows based, or would it work on Linux?

I already gave up on waiting for the existing companies to do anything. I spoke to two already and they basically said the same thing; that they were worried people would export their shows and they would be pirated. They obviously are going under the business model that their library of existing shows adds value to their product.

So, I am forging head making my software a lot better so that it can create shows as good or better than some of the existing stuff. I can say this, I will blow Moncha and Mamba Black out of the water. I don't know about Pangolin since I have never seen it. Shows created with my stuff will be exportable to ILDA format. So, even if someone has Mamba Black or Moncha they can still play shows created by my software. But most importantly to me, the guys building homebrew DACs won't have to buy software.

I'll have my own native format so that shows can be distributed and edited if desired. I don't expect it to be a common format, but I'll certainly allow companies to use it if they wish via an import function or whatever.

We'll see what happens.

[carmangary]

You won't need a projector to create or play back shows with my software. So, you will at least be able to watch other peoples shows on your computer via simulation.

The plug ins effects idea is nice. I have that in the back of my head but won't support it at first. It's an easy feature to add when the time is right.

I don't think I will ever ask for any money for this. It's my hobby. Based on what I get paid as a programmer I have already put several thousands of dollars worth of time into it. It's just not about the money at all. In fact, the whole idea is to make it cheaper or free for the laser hobby guys. For some reason, I see a lot of greed within this laser show community. I'd like to change that a little if I can.

I'm using C# for development. It has proven to be more than adequate.

I'm only targeting Windows users for the obvious reasons.

[JoJo]

You can do your own format and your own software and whatever. Many before did so.
But making a 'standard' completely without all the professionals will not be possible.
It will be nothing more than YALSF (Yet Another Laser Show Format).
We had this several times in the past. As long as just your own software uses your 'standard', it will be difficult.
I was also not happy with just the ILDA format, specially when it comes to a realtime showplayback from flash card players.
And I told this also to other members of ILDA back in 2004, when they started to make a new ILDA format (with the well known reaction: 'Nobody needs (wants) that').
Bill described the problem. The show protection problem has to be solved first.
Before making a standard format, we need a security system.
I don't think such a format will come next few years, but I think, the time will come.

Compared with the history of the computers, we are still 25 years back with the lasershow industry. This was the time where every company made their own systems and where the user had to decide between an AppleII, a Commodore64, an IBM PC or one of the various 'exotic' ones.
As everybody knows today, not the TECHNICAL BEST system won the race. The reason that MS became the global player in PC world was not that IBM created a 'closed' system. The key of success was the open hardware, so every company could produce 'IBM-clones' and develop better and faster hardware.
Completely closed systems, like Pangolin, Lobo or Lasergraph (just as example), had always their right to exist in history. Just remember the various kinds of Expert Systems and CAD-workstations. Many of these companies were really big and successful.
But many of these big names are gone and forgotten.
The real breakthrough always comes with products, where at least one part is open.
Would MP3 be such successful, if it would be a completely secured format?
Naturally, everybody can copy MP3, but otherwise, your mobile would be nothing more than a telephone today.
Also your mobile would not make any pictures, if there is no standard like JPEG.
Naturally, many companies are afraid of changes. And the most successful companies don't like any changes at all! IBM didn't want any changes in office technology for decades.
Why changing something, as long as the money still flows in my pocket?
But what happened to these 'Dinosaurs', after the desktop computers, invented by some freaks became more and more commercial? They had to change their direction.
So I am quite sure that there will be at least one 'real' playback showformat in the future. Also there will be a way to protect shows from piracy.
I need the people making shows and they need the people paying for it as well as they need the software to do the shows. So it makes no sense to kick any software company or any show writer in the ass.
This is the reason, all companies must come together to one table.
ILDA could be a suitable platform for this.

Joachim

BTW: I was the inventor of the first flash memory based 'playback system' for lasershow.
It was called 'Hotboard'.

[nanoWatt]

Since you're a developer you probably make more than the measly $40k I make as a report writer (even with an MBA). And even with that I'm barely making it.

It would be nice to do lasers as a business, but now I just have to hope that my other online business works out. It's more of a necessity for me, rather than getting rich, which I know lasers will never do.

You might have to pioneer something more remarkable. Like patent a certain effect or something. Get hollywood, or the government to buy into it.

Maybe I'm thinking too much out loud.

You won't need a projector to create or play back shows with my software. So, you will at least be able to watch other peoples shows on your computer via simulation.

The plug ins effects idea is nice. I have that in the back of my head but won't support it at first. It's an easy feature to add when the time is right.

I don't think I will ever ask for any money for this. It's my hobby. Based on what I get paid as a programmer I have already put several thousands of dollars worth of time into it. It's just not about the money at all. In fact, the whole idea is to make it cheaper or free for the laser hobby guys. For some reason, I see a lot of greed within this laser show community. I'd like to change that a little if I can.

I'm using C# for development. It has proven to be more than adequate.

I'm only targeting Windows users for the obvious reasons.

[JoJo]

You might have to pioneer something more remarkable. Like patent a certain effect or something. Get hollywood, or the government to buy into it.

Is it still 'open' or 'free', after hollywood buys it?
Most of the so called 'open freak projects' become commercial at a specific point.
I don't mean this is bad, because somebody who spent 100s or 1000s of hours into a project, has the right to get something back.
Even Carmangary's plan sounds very generous, I don't believe that there will be a totally free software, which is as good or better than the commercial ones.

Software patents are difficult.
If it would be so easy, lots of todays software would look different.
Check out some of Adobes patents and you will see what I mean
Making a patent ( specially in U.S.) is very easy, much more easy than in Europe.
But getting right for that patent before the court is a totally different thing.

Joachim

[nanoWatt]

I think Pangolin does even 3D, and 3D is the hot thing right now. Look at all the 3D animations and such out there. I believe Pangolin sets the standard, so giving something they don't do might be nice.

What is something that they haven't done yet? Maybe something with the audio side. Creating sounds from the light? I'm just thinking here.

[buffo]

I think the important issue is still that *good* laser shows are very hard to make, and that's why they add value to a product.

Laser shows are not like music. It's a lot easier to learn to play the guitar than it is to learn how to hand-animate figures for a laser show. I know *lots* of people that can create beautiful music from scratch using various instruments. I only know of a few people that have the artistic talent needed to hand-draw realistic pictures, and of those few, I can only think of one that actually has the patience to hand-animate an entire animation. (He did some animation on the Amiga back in the day...) That's the sort of skill it takes to create original laser show frames and animations, and because it's rare, the content is worth more money.

So, without some way to ensure that those artists can earn a living (IE: DRM), you aren't going to have a lot of people creating frames. (Or, at least not a lot of people creating really good frames.)

I've tried to create some frames myself, and I suck. Really! I've enlisted the help of a few friends that have artistic talent, and while they were able to get better results that I did, they quickly lost interest. (Who wants to draw several hundred frames of the same basic scene?)

So where am I going to find someone willing to hand-draw nearly 3000 frames, and then spend weeks or months tweaking the tweening process to produce a 5 or 10 minute laser show animation that I can watch on my projector?

Heck, even with all the talented people we've got here on PL, all the shows I've seen on the FTP server so far have consisted mostly of pre-drawn frames from someone else. True, there are a few people here that can draw their own frames (Dr Laser even posted a few short animations that were, shall we say, provocative.!.), but I can't think of anyone that has produced an entire show (4 or 5 minutes long) that consisted entirely of their own artwork.

Now imagine the effort required to produce 100 such shows. That is the value that Bill was talking about with regard to the LD-2000, and if you can't protect that content, the content creators will move on to something else.

As for the new system Bill is developing - I have no idea what it entails. But if it won't run on the Easylase, then timing has to be crucial. (The Easylase exhibits some pronounced sample jitter; that's what he was referring to when he said that we saw a problem at the first Florida meet.) Maybe Zoof is on to something re: velocity vector info vs point info, but I have a feeling it's more than that.

Still, I think the ILDA format will be around for a very long time, no matter what Pangolin comes up with. If there is another frame or show format that gets released that works better than ILDA, well, maybe hobbyists will start using it. But I don't see the major content producers jumping on board, because it doesn't ensure their continued revenue. And without that, those animators could just as easily go work for Disney, where they know they'll get paid. (And I don't see a lot of content creation in the hobbyist community, so without the paid animators you aren't going to have the content.)

Adam

[carmangary]

Yea, good shows are hard to make. But, I'd rather have 100 free amateur shows to music that I like that I can watch while I drink beer in my room than just a few professional show to some music I don't even care about.

Sure, everyone could spend a bunch of money on Pangolin stuff and have 100 shows to watch. But then what? You're back to square one. I really don't want 100 shows that are to music that I don't even like. Are there any shows to KMFDM or Ministry in that bag of shows? If not, then they're all worthless to me. I'm a hobby guy. I'd rather spend time creating my own shows to music I like than watching pretty lasers dancing to Britney Spears or whatever they have. And, I'd be happy to share whatever I come up with with others for free so that maybe they can give me their Thrill Kill Kult shows. Yea, maybe the shows suck and are just some animations spinning aroud. I'm cool with that. If I drink enough beer it will all be cool.

If you're in this as a ways to make money then you probably don't understand my point of view because you're only interested in a handful of really really good shows. But, if you are in it for the cool lights and music then maybe you can see what I am getting at.

Anyway, I am done discussing this because it is going no where. I'm already well on my way with what I am doing and that's all that matters to me now.