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Thread: Laser-wave to CNI Compare Test

  1. #91
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by tocket View Post
    I agree that blanking specs is very important and something the manufacturers need to work on.
    Thanks for the input, Tocket! Glad to see you're on-board and willing to help develop this standard.
    You left out one important issue however; linearity.
    You're right. I alluded to it in requirement # 4, but didn't specify the parameter well enough.

    The formula you've proposed will work, but might be more difficult for the manufacturer to work with. (They'd need to take the measurements, then plot the graph, then determine the slope.) Also I'm not sure that it's realistic to expect a zero offset (m). Most analog lasers need at least .7 volts on the blanking lead before they turn on. Some don't turn on until around 1.2 volts. But yeah, there should be a spec for that turn-on point, as well as a linearity spec. Normalizing to get a consistent slope is a nice idea, but really - if the laser meets the offset requirement and is linear, then the slope will be consistent anyway... (Unless it reaches max power at significantly less than 5 volts, that is!)

    How about specifying a turn on voltage spec (plus or minus a narrow band), and a separate voltage spec for when the laser reaches 100% of rated power (again plus or minus a narrow band). If we control those two end points, then we don't need to worry about the slope. (As for the linearity between those two points - that's another measurement that can be combined with the blanking speed test; see below.)

    What is a happy medium for the turn-on voltage? Maybe a goal of 1 volt offset, plus or minus .5 volts? Or is that too broad a spec? What do you think? And what about the voltage for max power? 4.5 volts? 5 volts exactly? And how wide of a band do you want on the high end? (My gut reaction is to give a little more leeway on the lower turn-on voltage, but to tighten the spec on the max power voltage to something like 4.8 volts plus or minus .2)

    One other problem though, is that you need to define what "turning on" consists of. Maybe it would be better to call it the voltage at which the power output is 10% of maximum...

    Basically I'm trying to make the spec something that can easily be measured by a technician in the factory to see if the laser is OK or not before it ships. I am afraid that if the spec requires too many calculations, or requires graphing in order to test, then it might not be implemented at all. (Trying to keep it simple without sacrificing quality.)
    You also need to look at the residual. Stating that the residual may at no point be larger than 0.1 and the standard deviation for k must be less than 0.05 would weed out any lasers that cannot handle analog blanking in a linear fashion.
    That's a pretty tight spec for the slope (k). If you are going to allow for a 10% deviation at any one point (your .1 residual term), then you really need to increase the standard deviation spec, don't you think?
    The other related issue is that of power fluctuations due to blanking.
    This is what is known as jellybeaning (or blanking-induced power loss), and it's at the heart of step 4 of requirement # 4. (Specifically, the "no power fluctuations greater than 10%" part at the end of that sentence.) It's also one of the most vexing problems with DPSS lasers today. (At least from my experience.)
    Normally you would expect a beam's power to be a simple function of duty cycle (D) and analog blanking on-state voltage (V) like:
    P=Pmax*D*V/Vmax
    <snip>
    Since there are two variables in this problem it becomes more complex to analyze. A fairly simple way of doing it is to pick 10 points on the surface spanned by D and V, measure actual power at those points and compare to the ideal function above. By requiring that the measured value is within 10% of the ideal we can assure ourselves that the handles analog blanking properly.
    This is exactly what I proposed, though admittedly I didn't include the formula to calculate it. (Thanks for that!) But we're on the same page here: No more than a 10% power fluctuation at whatever rated power is selected.

    So - for example, if you have a 100 mw analog laser that turns on at 1 volt, and reaches maximum power at 5 volts, then 3 volts on the blanking lead should = 50 mw CW. Now pulse it at 3 volts at 10Khz at a 50% duty cycle, and you should have 25 mw average power. If your measured power isn't within 10% of 25 mw, the laser fails this spec.

    Also, taking a set of 10 measurements (from a low of 10% power all the way to 100% power) using this same criteria should give you enough data to predict the slope with reasonable accuracy. So if there *is* a dip in the slope, it should be apparent. This means that one test will allow you to see if the laser meets the jellybeaning requirement as well as the power linearity requirement. Or, to put it another way, if you have 10 points on the power curve that are all in line within 10%, then the slope can be interpolated from that and assumed to be within 10% as well. No need to actually plot the graph.

    One thing I should probably admit here is that I'm running Pangolin, which has a very complicated color balance routine that will compensate for non-linearity in the laser's power curve. So perhaps I'm a bit less sensitive to this issue than other people might be. But I also don't want to make the spec so tight that it's unattainable. (Or, unattainable without spending a small fortune.)

    What do you think? How much non-linearity is too much? And what about the turn-on point and the max power point. (For the purposes of discussion, let's call "turn on" to be 10% of rated power.) What is a reasonable voltage for that 10% power point? 1.2 volts maybe? plus or minus how much? And what about the max power point? I like 4.8 volts plus or minus .2, but what do you think?

    Adam

  2. #92
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    Default

    Good going so far guys... just what I had in mind.

    How about Bridge, CNI and Frank's teams getting in here with some input that keeps the balance between our "wish list" and what is reasonably achievable in regard to cost / performance.....

    Look forward to the development...

    Just a thought, should we now drop out and start a new thread with an appropriate heading so that others may follow and input. Remember this is hidden under the comparing laser thread.

    Cheers

    Ray
    NZ

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitts View Post
    Good going so far guys... just what I had in mind.

    How about Bridge, CNI and Frank's teams getting in here with some input that keeps the balance between our "wish list" and what is reasonably achievable in regard to cost / performance.....

    Look forward to the development...

    Just a thought, should we now drop out and start a new thread with an appropriate heading so that others may follow and input. Remember this is hidden under the comparing laser thread.
    That is a good idea. If all CNI and Bridge can make the wish list come ture, that will be perfect.
    I always buy lasers from CNI for years. I can see her improvement. Just like they have improved the duty cycle dependency for "default product " >10K Hz without extra charge. That is I just know. Every time when I place an order, I will write all the detailed specs, modulation type and frequency, driver, etc. I think it is easier than return the improper ones for my projectors.
    I hope the manufactures will pay more attention to our requests. I think PL is just the good platform for our discussion.

  4. #94
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    Hi Liv
    welcome to join and take part in the discuss.
    Here is a open forums, would you like introduce yourself to all of us.
    I am sure all people are like to know each other before discuss. thanks.
    Best regards!
    Bridge
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  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phritzler View Post
    Hello Guys.
    I broke the test now.
    Thanks for your help and tests,and point´s what to do.
    Phil
    Why have you stopped the test?
    KVANT Australian projector sales
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    Lasershowparts- Laser Parts at great prices
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  6. #96
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    Of course I think we should develop 'wish lists' for each popular wavelength - 457, 473, 532, 635, 660, 671. I would love to see a 1watt 635nm with the beam specs you are proposing Adam, however, I think it would remain a wish list for some time. Maybe a true 'wish list' with short term goal recommendations.

    For example
    Goal 1 - Beam spec Y standard on all lasers @ Z lasing wavelength up to X mW by September 15th 2008.

    Goal 2 - Blanking up to Adams recommendations by December 31st 2008

  7. #97
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    Smile

    Hey Max;

    You mentioned a good point: Direct injection beams are not going to be nearly as clean as DPSS beams. Do you think it would be better to have a separate standard for each, or to "dumb down" the specs of the DPSS lasers to match that of the direct injection diodes?

    Adam

  8. #98
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    Separate for each. Hands down. However, I think a great goal for direct injection would be to tame the beam specs. I would love to be able to buy a 635nm laser and have its performance match or even outperform my 532nm! I was chatting with Spec the other day about it. He said it really isn't that hard to do, but on a one-off basis the costs are huge (upwards of $1000) but of course with everything else in quantity that price drops dramatically!

    I think we also need to class the lasers as well. Most of us here would probably be in a hobbyist class (532nm @ 50-200mw; 660 @ 220-440; 473 @ 100-200) and I think we need to make our '@minimum list' for this hobbyist class and a separate one for another higher power class. The beam specs you are listing would be a nice goal for some of the higher power stuff - but I think it would again be a bit of a stretch for manufacturers to make something to those standards.
    Last edited by mliptack; 03-16-2008 at 20:39.

  9. #99
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    HI guys,

    Keep it coming....

    The matter of classes may be good but if we look at what is happening more and more are starting to get into that 1 watt plus area as well as the lower powers.

    I find it hard to figure that we have no input on this from Bridge, CNI or Frank.
    These are the guys that can tell us what can be done for a reasonable $ figure. After all they are the designers and builders of these things.
    If I analyse my issues with the Chinese lasers it is not that they are "no good" it is in the main a "final quality control issue". Simply put if its doesn't work properly in ALL respects, do not let it out the factory door.
    If you do this can only damage what would otherwise be a good reputation.

    Obviously we cannot expect a $1500.00 laser from China to be as good as a $10,000.00 one from Germany at a specification level BUT we should be able to expect that it will be free from defects and meet their own specification at least. (power is not the only criteria here !!)

    It would be really good if they would come on board and have some input to this specification idea.

    Anyway keep up the good work guys we are heading right where I hoped we would go.

    Cheers

    Ray
    NZ

  10. #100
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    Default Knowledge is Power

    Hi Adam,

    I really think we should hold the manufacturers " Feet to the Fire " on this
    whole concept. Although...it will be quite some time B4 I am in the market again ( mmm Maybe? )....I think linear response and response time ARE of special importance to the projector group....and I bet WE are going to have to come up with our own specs !!!! I do not have the expertise to help...I can just throw in my 2 cents and say next time I do drop thousands....It will be VERY welcome to have more knowledge to make a value based buy decision !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    CDBEAM/BoB
    Beam Axiom #1 ~The Quantum well is DEEP ! Photons for ALL !!
    .
    Beam Axiom #2 ~Yes...As a matter of fact...I DO wear tinfoil on my head !!
    .
    Beam Axiom #3 ~Whe'n dout...Po ah Donk awn et !!
    .
    Beam Axiom #4 ~A Chicken in every Pot, and a Laser Lumia in every Livingroom !!
    .
    Beam Axiom #5 ~"Abstract Photonic Expressionism"....is "Abstractonimical" !!
    .
    Beam Axiom #6 ~ "A Posse ad Essea" ~ From being possible to being actual ...is the beam target !

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