Russian laser show 'blinds' revellers

[Tribal Existance Prod.]

It does look like a Pulse Ktp - Been doin lots of events then I heard this, WOW, I can only hope this does'nt happen again somewhere else. Also wow Good to see Greg on the site, only have spoke to him on the phone. This site really gets everyone from our industry involved in group conversations. Who's next? The pres. of Bell Labs next? LoL I doubt it. Back the the current events, Russia was some kind of pressure from the situation as Greg stated or the operator was doing 27 tasks at once while the system was scanning. The promoter could have been pushing?? lots of reasons but the operator should have been more on the ball. Safety first because everyone wants to have a repeat booking more than once. Damage never helps anyone. To scan crowds with that kind of wattage is just not very safe at all as everyone here already knows.........


I Have'nt posted in over 8 months not because we did'nt want to Photonlexicon always ROCKS.. just been booked alot....like everyone else I hope.

HAPPY PHOTON
Marcus Chapman CIO - Project Manager

[Colin Kaminski]

I was talking with a optomistrist and he was looking at the retnia of a laser worker in the silicon valley. The worker had a spiral burn that started on the edge of his field of vision and went to the center. What had happened is when he noticed the laser in the side of his vision his eye scanned for it till his mind recognized what it was. This person did not realize there was any damage. He said it had happened a year ago and it felt like there was sand in his eyes. The damage will be permanent. He was not there to get examined for the damage just to get glasses.

I mention it to remind us all to be careful. I only work with small lasers in a confined lab but I am making setups with mirrors on steel rod mounts all the time. The steel rods make a nice fan when you hit them on accident. With my lasers it is not too dangerous because at arms length there is very little power involved.

I hope the powers that be in Laser Shows really take this seriously and call up local radio stations and newspapers to talk about the safety of laser shows. We really don't want to see a backlash in the industry from one ill-concived event.

We require Ham radio operators to have a licence? How about Laser operators? Just pass a test, pay your $5 and get a card. Just an idea.

PS Thank you for a great Laser forum. I have lurked here for some time.

[mccarrot]

Yes Tony you have been lucky. I know at least 3 laser professionals including Brian the owner of Cambridge Laser Laboratories http://www.cambridgelasers.com/home.html who have documented holes in their retinas from 250mW and smaller lasers.

All it takes is one 800mW RGB beam in one eye and you have permanent retinal damage. I also know the night club owner and the laser guy in San Francisco who settled out of court for $750,000.00 in a laser eye injury suit.

This is exactly why I say it is a unethical idea to audience scan anyone whether you are varienced by the FDA or GOD it sends the wrong message.
Under or uneducated people will see a "safe varianced" audience scanning show and try their best to replicate it for themselves usually with out knowing what MPE stands for.

It is my OPINION that the bodies(eye injuries) have been stacking up for years. It is only now in the age of the internet that we hear about them.
It is also my OPINION that it is fact that 99 percent of all laser related eye injuries go noticed but unreported due to peoples ignorance of laser induced injury. It is only when the injury is so bad that a loss of sight is reported that anyone hears about it.

I will say no more as I have already made my point very clear here http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...ience+scanning

Skipp

I completly agree, I got holes ans scars in my retrina from watching a 400mW laser!

[Jem]

I was talking with a optomistrist and he was looking at the retnia of a laser worker in the silicon valley. The worker had a spiral burn that started on the edge of his field of vision and went to the center. What had happened is when he noticed the laser in the side of his vision his eye scanned for it till his mind recognized what it was. This person did not realize there was any damage. He said it had happened a year ago and it felt like there was sand in his eyes. The damage will be permanent. He was not there to get examined for the damage just to get glasses.

I mention it to remind us all to be careful. I only work with small lasers in a confined lab but I am making setups with mirrors on steel rod mounts all the time. The steel rods make a nice fan when you hit them on accident. With my lasers it is not too dangerous because at arms length there is very little power involved.

I hope the powers that be in Laser Shows really take this seriously and call up local radio stations and newspapers to talk about the safety of laser shows. We really don't want to see a backlash in the industry from one ill-concived event.

We require Ham radio operators to have a licence? How about Laser operators? Just pass a test, pay your $5 and get a card. Just an idea.

PS Thank you for a great Laser forum. I have lurked here for some time.

Hey Colin

Great to see you over here

For those who don't know, Colin runs the Holography Forum at http://www.holographyforum.org

Cheers

Jem

[mccarrot]

Where the hell do you get this NONSENSE !

each effect has to be calculated and timed. 800 mw is NOT safe for a static effect. YOU ARE FULL OF BULLSHIT!

Steve Roberts

Sorry, calculation where done with a circle and triangle.

Can you explain yourself a litte bit more, so I can learn an not talk bullshit anymore

[mccarrot]

It's the second time he has come out with crap like this!

Where are you getting your calculations, information and formulas from???

I used the LaserSafe PC proffesional calculation tool.

http://www.lasersafepc.com/B_Home.htm

Can you please explain why I'm talking crap.

[Alsone]

Only a complete JACKASS would shine a laser on a human for any other reason than surgery.
Audience scanning is stupid no matter who does it or if they have a Variance for it.
Audience scanning sends the wrong message that lasers are safe to point in your eyes.
Jackasses.

Audience scanning can be done perfectly safely if the calculations are properly observed.

Audience scanning has been happening in Europe since the early 1990's to my knowledge and yet the only 2 instances I've ever heard about of any damage being done was this concert and the one in Hungary mentioned above.

So problems are EXTREMELY rare - 2 instances in around 18 years of shows worldwide with many hundreds of clubs scanning daily at anyone time.

That said, 2 instances are 2 many.

With regards to hobbyists / small clubs, I personally think the industry needs to take some action here and the law needs to require them to test their products before sale for MPE with all pre-set patterns and produce a table of results that are supplied with the laser. This would provide the hobbyist / small club with a much easier way of putting a show together whilst observing MPE. As values for each pattern to be used could be derived from the table then overal MPE calcuated for the show based on those values, thereby taking the complex calculations out of the hands of the hobbyist and into the hands of those that can afford the software / meters to do it properly. Given that most manufacturers only produce 3 or 4 different lasers, it wouldn't be impossible for them to produce such data by the use of industry standard software and MPE metering (although I concede time would be required, but then again what manufacturing base doesn't spend time product testing). This would then give a regulatory framework to enforce compliance as any manufacturer producing erronous data would be liable to litigation and / or prosectution thus keeping the cowboys out of the industry.

As I see it data would be needed to be produced for each pattern at set distance from 5 meters to maybe 30 meters in 5 meter increments and in time intervals from 5 seconds of playback to maybe 1 minute of playback for the effect. The resulting book could then be supplied with the laser with each effect and the table of corresponding results compulsory given at least 1 page per effect thus making MPE simply a matter of consulting the (clear large) table for distance vs duration and writing the values down for each effect in a show for an overall calculation.

Anything individual patterns that the customer designed themselves post purchase would fall outside of the book would be down to them or a laserist to calculate.

Also, just to prove beams can be done safely - this is a club I went to. The beams here are quite concentrated and strike the CCD on my camera directly several times but neither myself, the camera or anyone in the audience suffered any damage. The show also scanned other effects at other times (albeit with a non laser break observed in between). BTW I know I have no damage as I have had retinal photographs taken as part of a routine check up at my opticians and they're normal. My camera continues to function with no dead pixels;

http://vimeo.com/1351947

I got holes ans scars in my retrina from watching a 400mW laser!

No disrespect, but you obviously failed to calculate MPE properly or took chances, and didn't you say that it was a friends home built laser? Which in turn means that it was an unknown quantity. A laser diode can put out more or less than stated power. Many can be varied according to the feed voltage and also, without proper checking equipment, its impossible to know what if any levels of invisible radiation are being emitted.

[buffo]

And throw the variance out the window.

I was with you right up 'til that last part, Laser Zone...

Adam

[Pitts]

Do you get the idea that this thread and incident is real important..
Look at who's on board with this one..

Greg Markhov from LSDI
Bill Benner from Pangolin
CEO from ILDA

Great to see the input and also that they know we are here on this great forum.. Pro's and Amateurs with the same love of the beam !!..

Great to hear from you guys stay in touch ( Bill's always giving us a hand)
Cheers

Ray

[gottaluvlasers]

Alsone (and a few others)-

With all due respect, and NO, i have NO idea the calculations involved (if there were any), but that video you posted looks SEVERELY dangerous. thats just my opinion. those beams look VERY bright (prob 5+ WATTS im guessing) to be shooting into a crowd like that. i may be 100% wrong, i am not claiming to be a theoretical pro on laser scanning and MPE into a crowd, but WOW....

Of course there have been hundreds of shows, if not thousands of shows, where audience scanning has been performed. Of course 98% of the time, when illegal and unsafe scanning is performed there are no reported injuries. I dont think thats the problem. i believe the problem lies within the FACT that audience scanning -

***HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BE EXTREMELY DANGEROUS!!!!!!***

I am NOT saying it is DEFINITIVELY dangerous. I am NOT saying it is DEFINITIVELY and UNEQUIVOCALLY Dangerous. I am simply stating that it has the EXTREME HIGH POTENTIAL to become VERY dangerous, VERY rapidly.

It has been proven that you can be in a body of water and have a 357 magnum shot at you from a distance of 3 feet away and it wont so much as tickle your skin. BUT....it will be a cold day in hell before you see my fat ass in the water to (WITH SAFETY PRECAUTIONS) TEST that theory!!!

SHIT HAPPENS sometimes!!! sometimes, things go wrong. as we ALL know. a simple calculation could have been done wrong. a MPE meter could have had low batteries (and of course im stretching here) and given false measurements. who knows??

the point im trying to get at ( i know, it may seem like im going back and forth...) is that there may be 5 or so companies out there that have the resources, technology, money, education, talent, know how, equipment and reputation to perform a "AS SAFE AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE" Laser show with audience scanning. HOWEVER- there still is some sort of inherent danger involved. of course those odds are in the 1 in a million range, but hey...they're still there.

what i think happens is that there are so many joe schmos out there with chinese $50 high powered laser systems and hear of a "safe way" to audience scan, and assume, "well if they CAN do it safely, it must not be that bad..." and then try to reproduce it themselves. just becasue it is done with no reported injuries, doesnt mean it isnt dangerous.

Companies like pangolin, LSDI, Lasertainment, the "BIG BOYS" of this industry, go through HELL and HIGH WATER to get the licensing and education required to be able to SAFELY (as safe as possible) audience scan, and THAT i support 110%!!!!

But i cant sit here and support the fact that-
its ok to audience scan my laser at 5W (or whatever) becasue it isnt pulsed and i used a free MPE calculator i downloaded off of google. or becasue someone did some pretty rudimentary math with unknown variables and came up with "ITS SAFE."

Again, these are my OPINIONS. i am in NO WAY saying that you or anyone is WRONG. i guess i just try to air on the side of caution rather than...eh, it wont happen to me.

-Marc