Russian laser show 'blinds' revellers

[Alsone]

Marc, the video I posted is from a multi million pound global name in the entertainment industry.

Also, in the UK which was where that show took place, laser shows are tightly regulated. There are strict health and safety regulations and before a show can take place, a full health and safety risk assessment has to take place, which in turn has to be fully documented.

As for the lasers being in the multi-watt range, I wouldn't know the power used for that show.

But I do know places like Awakenings and Ministry.sk, have been using multiwatt - lasers, I believe up to 8 Watt to audience scan without incident for some time now.

Take a look at this:

http://www.overexposure.nl/Videos_Ov...wakenings.html

(Specifically the 21/22/23 Maart Video - will stream)

and Ministry:

http://www.rt-laser.sk/photos/Blava-Saeco.wmv (133mb download)

What this shows is that audience scanning is safe if done properly even with very powerful multiwatt systems.

Just because someone got it wrong doesn't mean lasers or audience scanning should be banned, especially if that incident occurred in a poorly or unregulated country.

However, I agree with you that there need to be more precautions and as I said above, this is where I believe the industry (reputable laser manufacturers) can take the lead by supplying each of their laser models with tables of MPE values for known instances for that particular model with all pre-programmed patterns (without smoke). In fact this is something that could actually help the industry against far eastern imports by having done this, and pressuring governments to make it a requirement that all lasers are assessed in this way and are supplied with standardised accompanying documentation. This would go a long way in my view to simplifying MPE for amateurs and help alleviate mistakes as MPE would become a much more simple calculation of taking the values obtained from the tables of the patterns you intended to use and then checking that the overall show doesn't exceed the MPE limits. Even the human factor could be taken out of this by supplying a software disc with a show calculator on it into which you enter the values for the patterns from the tables and it calculates overall MPE for you with the ability to print out a checklist of values entered to double check no inputting error. To supply such a disc as industry standardised and developed freeware, would cost manufacturers next to nothing.

Many things are dangerous if abused, but that doesn't mean that undue restrictions or bans should be placed on them just in case someone abuses them.

Far better to equip people with the knowledge to use them properly (in the case of amateurs) by providing simple tools to render a complicated and otherwise expensive process simple, and by regulation of professional show providers through fair legislation. The UK has shown just how safe audience scanning can be (practically any club with a laser does it over here with no reported incidents I know of in all the time lasers have existed), provided professional users are required to under take proper health and safety precautions as a matter of law.

[gottaluvlasers]

alsone-

Well put friend! i'll fully concede to that.

and just for the record,That awakenings Laser display....HOLY SHITE!!! that was probably one of the best beam displays throughout i have EVER seen. WOW. i dont know about the "safety" aspect of it. but, WOW!!!

-Marc

[Lasermad]

The headlines for th russian gig were SCARY but very pleased to see in the end if thingsb are read thru it seems no actual permanant damage was done although lot of people seemed to be in pain for a while ... if i read corclty no people have actually lost their sight ?

"Far better to equip people with the knowledge to use them properly "

Yip agree utterly ..miny of us are trying hard to understand the complexities of lasers , me in particular audiance scanning ......until the day i feel confident i fully understand MPE and have the equpment to back up my confidence with cold hard numbers - no audiance scanning from me !

PAUL

[tony220171]

A licence wont stop blindness, accidents happen, its people who need to be educated thousands of people get killed by cars and there licenced. Its up to the people to take responsability for there actions not rely on the government to take control they will simply ban laser shows all together or make it near impossable to conduct laser shows so i say again licences mean shit.

The solution is knowlage and shareing that knowlage and not afraid to ask questions.

That is the answer..........

[Pitts]

Some of the replies here seem to assume that there is a technical knowledge issue between amateur and professional.

If this is intended as I read it that amateurs are somehow deficient and professionals are not, then this is seriously flawed.

Of course it depends on your definition of amateur and professional. If this is based purely on if you get paid, (like bought a laser and a van) so now your a pro and if you don't your an amateur then this is even more flawed.

It is my experience in electronics (well over 30 years) and flying aerobatics (also over 30 years geez I'm old) which both involve pros and amateurs that many times it is the amateur that is the superior in knowledge and / or capability.
Flying a Boeing 747 for 12 hours straight does not make you a good aerobatic pilot for eg.

Ever delved into antenna design with a keen radio ham... these guys like the guys on PL, have, in some areas, an amazing knowledge, maybe only over a certain area, but they can leave many of us "pro" electronics guys dead in our tracks.

Anyone conversant with PL will know among our "amateurs" there are some guys with incredible knowledge... you dont have to hire a laser rig out to someone to be knowledgeable.
Somewhat like a "Pro-Am" I guess..

Just my point of view... not shooting at anyone, only the "generalisation" that amateurs are the bottom of the heap.. if you believe that you may be in for a shock.. equally if you believe that all Pros are somehow granted a higher God given technological intellect you may also be in for a suprise.

Ever thought how many "amateurs" have Phd's, Degrees in allied sciences, Engineering qualifications but are still "amateurs" because they don't do lasers for a living...!!!

Each on their own merits I say..

Cheers

Ray

[UV99LASER]

I have no formal training in anything.
However I have been building laser systems, designing graphics, designing 3-D scrims and producing 50 to 100 laser shes per year for the last 15 years.
I do not have any desire to do any type of direct laser on human effect of any kind. I do not think it is really ethical to do these type of effects no matter how safe some very professional person has made the effect or laser projection system.
Humans make very big mistakes all the time.
Some of the worst mistake are made by the very smartest people can we say Challenger Disaster or Three Mile Island. Those guys were rocket scientists and nuclear engineers, teams full of multiple PHDs. A full sized air craft falls out of the sky(world wide) almost every month.

I still say(my opinion) the laser induce eye injuries have been happening all along and not being reported.
If you are not familiar with the symptoms of laser exposure such as but not limited to itchy eyes, the feeling of sand in your eyes, severe headaches lasting 3 + days, blurred vision and feelings of disorientation than you might not report it as a laser induced injury. Most people do not even know a laser could hurt them many do not even know what a laser is.
Many people who do get scanned are clubbers and ravers in Europe these are not exactly sober people.
Hell if you are too drunk or doped up to find the door how would you know if you did get poked in the eye by a laser.

Is Disney scanning kids with lasers?

Lasers are dangerous enough with out intentionally exposing the public to direct radiation.
I think if you do a better show then you would not need to scan the audience in the face.

Skipp
http:/www.youtube.com/UV99LASER
http:/www.uv99laser.com
http:/www.uv99laser.com/burn.htmlThe burning laser. Really.

[Alsone]

UV99LASER

I admire your principles of safety and good on you if thats the way you're happy to go as someone who doesn't know how to properly ensure audience safety. Thats a responsible attitude and to be applauded.

My gripe, which might have got lost in the mele above, is with the banning or undue restriction of audience scanning not its safety.

For professionals, I'm quite happy to see fair restrictions requiring some licensing and training. In the UK a club needs to demonstrate safety in order to get a license and this extends to all aspects (including the lasers) so far as I'm aware. Certainly Health and Safety Assessments and risk assessments do. Personally I'd be quite happy for a restriction to exist requiring at least 2 members of staff (for a club) at anyone time to be trained to a recognised IDLA standard provided the courses weren't unduly expensive (couple of hundred pounds maybe - small clubs / mobile disco operators certainly can't pay more), (to allow for 1 being sick or leaving unexpectedly), and to see a specific endorsement rather than a license required (from my point of view as a member of the public) -Maybe a variation to the existing entertainments license for a nominal fee on proof of training / H&S complaince rather than a specific license would help keeps costs low.

However, I don't think there's much of a problem in the UK because of H&S regulation. More so in the many other countries that aren't regulated. It's here where I think the industry potentially is going to suffer as totally H&S unregulated shows are the potential time bombs.

PITTS

So far as amateurs go, I know nothing about flying or the other activities you mention. I do however think there is a problem with amateurs and lasers. Namely this:

1. They're available very fairly cheaply to all

2. Not everyone who buys them is an enthusiast

3. MPE is extraordinarilly complex with "A" to degree level maths type calculations required along with many measurements which an amateur simply finds too difficult to understand (even the enthusiast).

This is why I believe amateurs need help. Clearly lasers under Class IIIb aren't a problem unless stupidly abused (staring down a static beam for a long period to see what it does!).

However, Class IIIb and above, clearly need to have some standardised documentation to assist amateurs with MPE with the pre-programmed patterns and maybe even common software generated patterns (although I realise the common display software point (eg Pangolin, Mamba etc) might prove too expensive to implement due to the hundreds of additional patterns each package comes with). However, I see no such problem with the pre-programmed even though these sometimes run into hundreds. Ensuring product safety should be part of retailing and given that most manufactureres only produce a handful of models, I don't see this as asking too much.

GOTTALUVLASERS

I have no idea of the specific safety of those displays, only to say that both Ministry and Awakenings appear to be very reputable companies. Certainly so far as awakenings are concerned, some of the effects are being produced by laser rain - an old trick in which a laser is shone onto a laser specific mirror ball and this in turn splits the beam into hundreds maybe thousands more individual beams which then rain down on the audience. I think in the video, you can see 2 seperate mirror balls being targeted at times. Splitting the beam like this is bound to share the radiation level in between ech split beam I would have thought.


Mccarrot

I just looked at the Lasersafe software. You say you got the free version. The only free version I could find is a demo version and then the demo is specifically for 532nm wavelength only: http://www.lasersafepc.com/B_Home.htm

Yet you claim damage from a full colour laser. Hate to tell you this but a full colour laser doesn't put out 532 alone unless the only diode switched on is 532. Otherwise its putting out 532 + at least 2 other wavelengths which would then make it fall outside of the softwares safety calculation as what's safe pattern wise at 532 alone might not be safe at the other wavelengths.

[JStewart]

The events in Russia are very sad to hear of, and not more so than for the poor sods that have had their vision permanently damaged by what looks like to be a very stupid act. However I hope that if anything positive can be drawn from this, it has raised awareness among venues, promoters and operators alike that accidents can happen, and that lasers should always be used with care.

Typically what happens in many instances is the there is strong peer pressure, and pressure from the customer to audience scan. And as someone has already mentioned on this thread, it is often the treat of not getting the job in the first case or not getting paid, that acts as the catalyst for dangerous behaviour.

As for the UK being tightly regulated and not being much of a problem, I have to disagree. As some people who know me well will know, I’m very much involved in working with many UK venues in terms of laser safety, I therefore get to see a lot of what happens from all spheres of the industry. Unfortunately the chances of walking into a venue as seeing a good installation with a “suitable and sufficient” risk assessment as legally required by the MHSW Regs are very slim. The same has to be said for the need for trained operators, again a legal requirement under the same set of H&S regulations.

But these installations and shows happen regularly. Many at high profile events or venues, which people just assume must be safe. The reality is though that if someone visited one of these places and wanted to claim that it had affected there vision in some way, most venues and operators wouldn’t have a leg to sand on as they are hauled over the coals.

The requirements and laws already exist to protect workers and the public from such dangerous occurrences. But enforcement here in the UK is pretty non-existent apart from a few exceptions. Since the Licensing Act 2003, most areas have become pretty much self regulating, meaning that the Local Authority is less likely to scrutinise a laser installation. But in any event, just because a LA has granted a licence does not mean the show is safe, or that the show has been approved by the LA. The responsibility for show safety is always with the owner of the venue, even if they hire external contractors in, which is nearly always the case.

Government Agencies are very short of resources, so although they can appreciate that there is a problem here, on their list of things to enforce and police it is quite low down on the priorities. Only when events such as those which have happened in Russia occur will it become more of an issue that they want to actively tackle. – I don’t know, but hearing of 50 odd people injured in a show may already bring this to the fore.

ILDA and a laser safety standard is a difficult topic to tackle also. ILDA has had some involvement in the preparation of the recently published IEC guidance on laser show safety 60825-3:2008. But I feel has failed in its commitment to promoting safety, (as it claims), in that it could (and should) of adopted the IEC 60825-3 guidance as a Code of Practice for the organisation. - But ILDA won’t because it will upset too many of its members. Remember at the end of the day, ILDA is a commercial operation, and needs to continue to be funded by as many members as possible.

Perhaps following recent events, and seeing the commercial damage such headlines can create, ILDA will reconsider the promotion of the guidance it helped to write, and instead of just recommending it to those “starting out in lasers”, make it a Code of Practice.

Fingers crossed we don’t hear of any more such incidents in the future

James Stewart

[mccarrot]

alsone-

Well put friend! i'll fully concede to that.

and just for the record,That awakenings Laser display....HOLY SHITE!!! that was probably one of the best beam displays throughout i have EVER seen. WOW. i dont know about the "safety" aspect of it. but, WOW!!!

-Marc

I have been to most Awakenings raves myself.
this I where I got my laser addiction from
they have always the best en newest laser shows in the Netherlands, and maybe europe.

Those lasershows are done by Hugo Bunk (laserimage), a well known ILDA board member.
http://www.laserist.org/board.htm#past-board-members

[James Lehman]

What I find most disturbing about this whole incident is just how easy it would have been to determine that there was a clear and present danger in pointing the laser towards people. I bet if anyone had bothered to put a little bit of paper or cardboard close to the output, in front of the laser while it was on, even in full scan, it would have smoked. That would be all I needed to know.

There's just no getting around the fact that this was a very stupid thing to do. Innocent people paid the price.

James.