Russian laser show 'blinds' revellers

[Alsone]

Those lasershows are done by Hugo Bunk (laserimage), a well known ILDA board member.
http://www.laserist.org/board.htm#past-board-members

The Guys a genius!!!!

Here's another vid, never seen laser shows so intense or bright: http://www.overexposure.nl/Videos_Ov...wakenings.html

Look at Gashouder 28/29 Sept (1st video), its another of my favourites.

[Pitts]

Hi Alsone..

I think you missed my point, like in your paragraph..

3. MPE is extraordinarilly complex with "A" to degree level maths type calculations required along with many measurements which an amateur simply finds too difficult to understand (even the enthusiast).

While this may be true, your assumption that amateurs lack the ability to handle this level of technology & mathematics may be flawed.
Look at the skill set on this forum alone... most of whom are "amateurs" but some have Chemistry degrees, some are scientists, some are electronics engineers one I know used to work on Nuclear subs !!!

All I am saying is don't assume anything.... just because someone doesn't do something for a living doesn't make them somehow 'inferior' in skills or intellect. Nor does it make a 'pro' an expert. A 'pro' could be someone who has enough money to setup and do laser shows... is this a pro ?

Generalisations are dangerous and can lead you up the garden path..

As for me I am not interested in doing audience scanning "at this time" why ? because I do not feel I have the skills and all of the facts fully understood yet. I certainly don't want to hurt anyone and I certainly don;'t want to trigger of an over enthusiastic OSH department, IF and WHEN I do then I will certainly consider it.

As for turkeys that buy pointers and cause mayhem.. well they don't even rate as amateur in my book..their just a bloody impedement to this great hobby / business..... amateur to my mind means an enthusiast that pursues their hobby as a real interest.

Cheers

Ray

[mccarrot]

Isn't it possible to make a computer program to scan a (ilda) show and generate a report wich say at what power laser vs distance the show is safe for audiance scanning.

Even having 1 benchmark show as an example would make the audiance scanning story much more clear.

[andy_con]

Hi Alsone..

I think you missed my point, like in your paragraph..

3. MPE is extraordinarilly complex with "A" to degree level maths type calculations required along with many measurements which an amateur simply finds too difficult to understand (even the enthusiast).

While this may be true, your assumption that amateurs lack the ability to handle this level of technology & mathematics may be flawed.
Look at the skill set on this forum alone... most of whom are "amateurs" but some have Chemistry degrees, some are scientists, some are electronics engineers one I know used to work on Nuclear subs !!!

All I am saying is don't assume anything.... just because someone doesn't do something for a living doesn't make them somehow 'inferior' in skills or intellect. Nor does it make a 'pro' an expert. A 'pro' could be someone who has enough money to setup and do laser shows... is this a pro ?

Generalisations are dangerous and can lead you up the garden path..

As for me I am not interested in doing audience scanning "at this time" why ? because I do not feel I have the skills and all of the facts fully understood yet. I certainly don't want to hurt anyone and I certainly don;'t want to trigger of an over enthusiastic OSH department, IF and WHEN I do then I will certainly consider it.

As for turkeys that buy pointers and cause mayhem.. well they don't even rate as amateur in my book..their just a bloody impedement to this great hobby / business..... amateur to my mind means an enthusiast that pursues their hobby as a real interest.

Cheers

Ray

this is a very true statement and i totally agree.

an amateurs doesnt make you a "cowboy"

[Alsone]

Isn't it possible to make a computer program to scan a (ilda) show and generate a report wich say at what power laser vs distance the show is safe for audiance scanning.

Even having 1 benchmark show as an example would make the audiance scanning story much more clear.

Thats almost what I was suggesting for pre-set patterns rather than shows, although its not possible to generalise as each laser is different. Hence the reason why each manufacturer would have to draw up pre-set pattern tables for each model of laser.

As for software "scanning a show", thats not how it works. MPE is calculated as per the IDLA link posted earlier - in other words it takes in a large number of factors to make a prediction as to the likely level of radiation you'd be exposed to during a specific pattern from a certain perspective. You can't just "scan" IDLA software as each laser used with that software has different characteristics eg power, beam width and divergence etc and these variables need to be a part of the equation as they affect exposure.

BTW I'm no expert on MPE and from my own perspective would like to audience scan at home but wouldn't want to do the calculations as things stand as an amateur as its just far too risky from a mistake point of view with the current level of complexity of calculation. The calculation itself can't be simplified, but manufacturers could assist by drawing up tables where patterns are pre-assesed for you thus making it easier and safer to draw up a show with only the overall calculation to complete.

an amateurs doesnt make you a "cowboy"

Andy, I don't think I actually said that. I accept that there are some very talented and clever amateurs out there. However, the fact remains that the level of intelligent people in the population as a whole is quite low and the access to lasers quite easy, which means that many people who incapable of doing these calculations are potentially in possession of lasers with no way of assessing them. I'm intelligent - I have a Postgraduate diploma, 2:1 degree from a red brick university, 3 "A" levels including maths and 9 "O" levels in non mickey mouse subjects, and taken before exams became easy, but I wouldn't feel comfortable making and relying on the MPE calculations as they stand.

My suggestion was aimed at trying to make the process of safety much simpler for all and lets face it even the intelligent can make mistakes, so the simpler it is to calculate, the safer amateur shows become and the more the risk of a back lash and knee jerk bans recede.

[andy_con]

sorry i didnt mean for it to sound like that. i know you didnt say that.

my bad

[Alsone]

Hey no probs. Was perhaps a bit of ambiguity in what I said anyway. Just wanted to clear it up.

[UV99LASER]

UV99LASER

I admire your principles of safety and good on you if thats the way you're happy to go as someone who doesn't know how to properly ensure audience safety.

What an arrogant statement to make. As if I don't know how to properly ensure audience safety. Jerky statement to say the least.
I can do the math, I can buy the meters I can even buy the spendy "safe audience scanning projector" from the big boy's.
I can follow all the same regulations just like everybody else.
I mean how many times in this post is there a direct link to the formulas?
Do you think it is too hard for me to point and click then follow the directions?? WTF??

I think audience scanning is a lame way to wow a crowd by a laser operator who cannot do a really good 3 meter show.
I choose not to do audience scanning as I do not think is is ethical.
I think people do not realize the consequences of their actions. Monkey see monkey do.

So a smart monkey does an approved audience scanning show. A stupid ape shows up and thinks how cool is that I can do that at home.
Said stupid ape scans audience with pulsed yag laser.
Does smart monkey bear any responsibility for inspiring stupid ape?
I'd say some. Ethics is a sticky slippery subject.

As for lasers being safely used in Europe or the UK I'll quote this man.

As for the UK being tightly regulated and not being much of a problem, I have to disagree. As some people who know me well will know, I’m very much involved in working with many UK venues in terms of laser safety, I therefore get to see a lot of what happens from all spheres of the industry. Unfortunately the chances of walking into a venue as seeing a good installation with a “suitable and sufficient” risk assessment as legally required by the MHSW Regs are very slim. The same has to be said for the need for trained operators, again a legal requirement under the same set of H&S regulations.

But these installations and shows happen regularly. Many at high profile events or venues, which people just assume must be safe. The reality is though that if someone visited one of these places and wanted to claim that it had affected there vision in some way, most venues and operators wouldn’t have a leg to sand on as they are hauled over the coals.
James Stewart

Audience scanning I think is not worth the risk. It will be the death of this industry.
Skipp

[buffo]

Does smart monkey bear any responsibility for inspiring stupid ape? I'd say some. Ethics is a sticky slippery subject.

That's lunacy! By your logic, NASCAR bears responsibility for people that drive too fast on the freeway!

If you don't want to audience-scan because you don't think it's worth the risk, then that's your opinion and you're welcome to it. But when you go after *EVERYONE* that does audience-scanning (even those that *have* done the math and *are* doing it safely), then you've crossed the line in my book. Such irrational statements and wild-eyed safety claims are every bit as hurtful to the industry as the two documented crowd safety incidents we've been discussing. Maybe even more so.

For the record, I happen to agree with you that audience scanning is not worth the risk - at least for me and my home-built projector. But then again, I'm not even doing commercial shows, so it's really a moot point.

Having said all that, I am not opposed to audience scanning by trained professionals, and would gladly attend an audience scanning show if it were put on by a company I trust. (In fact, I already have attended such a show - Twice! Namely the Pink Floyd Laser Spectacular, in Lakeland, FL back in March of last year. Ryan Waters produced the show, and it was great!)

Adam

[dsli_jon]

Hey Kats...

First off, I know this is PL, and not ILDA, but I submit we all owe a tip of the hat to Patrick Murphy (ildadirect), Bill Benner (Pangolin) and Greg Makhov (lasrgreg), who are, as we type, spearheading efforts to counteract backlash from this incident outside this forum, thru an ILDA-based PR campaign to spread ACCURATE info about laser safety / this incident / etc, so hopefully, 'victims' like gottaluv (sorry marc! ) will be as limited as they can be.

I am sure we are not the only Sho Co with multi-$K shows on the hook that heard a great-big 'record-scratch-sound' as we read those 'poisonous' headlines, "...BLINDED...LOSE SIGHT..." etc, cause you know those who read that 'at-that-point-un-verified' info (..."They all have retinal burns, scarring is visible on them. Loss of vision in individual cases is as high as 80 percent, and regaining it is already impossible,"...) are now 'scarred' themselves, (again, gottaluv's experience..) and even though subsequent articles clarified that those 'blindings' were un-verified, and possibly exaggerated "...ophthalmologists revealed no retina burns in the end, while the actual diagnosis was etimopathy of hemorrhagic form...." etc, etc - only those Docs really know the truth...point is, will our Clients / potential clients pursue the stories to find out, if left to themselves? Not likely, I'd venture...

So, again, thanks to ILDA / these PL-members (and others whose efforts I may not be aware of) for helping ALL of us hopefully avoid laser 'witch-hunts' owing to sensationalism-hungry media outlets, damn them all! Oh, and I am NOT minimalising the damage to those that got injured - to the contrary, I wholeheartedly write in support of this fact:

The lesson? NEVER NEVER NEVER USE A PULSED LASER FOR AUDIENCE SCANNING!!

The way I see this incident, it really has nothing to do with whether or not audience scanning CAN be safe / is 'sane' / a good idea, etc - the bottom line with this incident is that the WAY-WRONG laser was used for the circumstances...In fact, I don't see this as an 'accident' at all...

No, I don't think it was 'Dr Evil', intentionally blinding people, but it was clearly not a 'broken galvo mirror' or a laser head that shifted from it's moorings, inadvertantly scanning the crowd - this was such wanton use of the WRONG laser for the job, that to me, suggests either #1 - the Op did not CARE / was on Xtc/LSD, etc OR - did not KNOW / realise what they were doing - any experienced operator (and by 'experienced', I mean experienced with THESE-types of lasers!!!) SHOULD HAVE known better - UNLESS it was, in fact, an oblivious 'noob'...

This is, as I see it, one of the weakest links out there, relative to these hot-rodded Laserscope (or whatever..) 'conversions' - check this out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/LASERSCOPE-532-K...2em118Q2el1247

Note the 'Disclamer': "Remember! (If Applicable) The sale of this item may be subject to regulation by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and state and local regulatory agencies. If so, do not bid on this item unless you are an authorized purchaser. If the item is subject to FDA regulation, we will verify your status as an authorized purchaser of this item before shipping of the item..."

Hmm. Well, I contacted them as an 'interested party' and they didn't 'card' me or 'verify my status as an authorized purchaser'. OK, yes, they point to the FDA site, but they only point to the 'front door' and not to the real meat of what a potential buyer (especially if just an individual) needs to read: http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/radhealth/pr...netlasers.html

Now, I am NOT picking on these people in particular, simply pointing out via this example, that a very weak link is many HIGHLY UN-ENFORCED sales by unscrupulous sellers, giving little regard to making sure that those they sell to, actually KNOW what they are doing - only the bucks. I think it is VERY un-ethical / uneducated of sellers to market these lasers as "GREAT FOR LASER LIGHT SHOWS" withOUT 'qualifying' that statement: these lasers are 'great for laser shows' - ONLY IF properly converted, with all the safety features of a certified system (shutters, interlocks, etc MINIMUM) - even if for export (not subject to FDA re-certification for US sales.), their statement does nothing to EDUCATE a 'noob' as to the DANGERS of these for light shows, if not properly used. And the fact that they don't, only proves that they are just out to snag a 'drooling laser-bug' with a loose wad of cash - why would they need to TELL those of us ALREADY IN the industry about these being 'great for laser shows' - we already know! Very irresponsible / ignorant of them, I'd say...

How could they improve?? Well, for one thing, if they at least DID what they say they are gonna do: ASK for an individuals' Med license# - and CALL to verify it - or, in the case of a 'Sho co', ASK for their Variance, and CALL FDA to verify they have clearance for Class IV systems - if not, BLOCK THEIR STINKIN BID AND DON'T TAKE THEIR MONEY!!!

But clearly, many, many don't, and then you have this shyte:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6tjpOleiRA,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5MgLKzZQvo, (living room???!!!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GD9OYUernNs, (can't even SAY the correct words...),
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy6PHvOepUc, (...NOT a 'certified laser product' anymore, folks - much less a certified projector - no beam shutter, no interlocks, no head cover, etc...and this guy wonders why we refuse to sell him a controller or galvos... sheesh! )

Isolated case?? - Huh - here's the 'Darwin Award' for the day: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t65_JJrLFZ8

Now, IS IT possible that this Moscow incident was the result of some guy buying a Laserscope off eBay (or some other source) and hot-rodding it in his 'laundry-room', and taking it to Aquamarine (after convincing the organizers he was a 'laser show co') and shouting "BAM!" as he kicked on the Q-Sw and obliviously scanned the crap out of everyones eyes and phones while his stoned-ass pals / DJs all said 'wwoooaah, duuude; killllerrrr' (however that is said in Russian - all the while having NO CLUE of the real dangers of what he was doing, (like the laser-neanderthals we just watched on YouTube)???? Again, I doubt this happened at the hands of 'Dr Evil' nor at the hands of some EXPERIENCED Op who knew better. Again, I don't see an 'accident' there, just horrible irresponsibility / ignorance (perhaps)

Bottom line, again, IMHO, is I DO see better sales-regulation / variance enforcement being a good HELPER towards the end of people HAVING to BE educated / BE responsible - licenses/variances in and of themselves mean nothing - just like 'professional' means nothing, withOUT the appropriate EDUCATION / EXPERIENCE to validate it - it blows my MIND when 'laserists' kiddingly joke about thier 'lessons' from all the 'laser burns' in thier eyes / guys using thier EYES as a power meter to do 'MPE calculations' ('...if it hurts, it's prolly too much' - WTF???!!!) - it's like an electrician joking about 'how much he has learned from all the times he shocked the $#!t out of himself' - would you want him wiring your house????

Again, Thanks to all those endeavoring to counter the bad-press / educate on our behalfs, and Thanks to any and all who refuse to SELL to 'hacks' - no matter what the profit - at LEAST for the truly very dangerous systems - like YAG/KTPs - they CAN and DO make a great light show laser - for SOME, HIGHLY-controlled fx - but like Bill said, NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER for audience scanning / fx when Q-Switched.

I hope they find out who did this gig and use his own KTP to burn that onto his forearms - assuming he can read...

And I sincerely hope those kids' etimopathys/whatever heals with time - in the video, I did not see any one walking with a cane / seeing-eye dog, so it would seem there is hope for them to recover...and when/if they do, I hope THAT makes the news, too!!!

Ok, I'll shut up now...

peace..
J