3ds Max to ILDA Tutorial

[Pangolin]

Hi Doc,

Thanks for the tutorial. I am sure some folks here on PL will get a lot of enjoyment following your instructions and it is great to see people sharing their techniques.

However, after watching your video and seeing the process, I wanted to point out a simpler process. Yours involves multiple steps and multiple programs. We offer something that uses essentially a single step, so it is much eaiser, and the results are also better:
http://www.pangolin.com/_Videos/DVD_LCMax_640x480.wmv

The video shows a REALLY easy way to do 3D animations, and the handy thing is that the laser image generation is done within the same environment as the 3D object and scene creation. This allows you to work within a single medium and really maximizes productivity. There are other benefits as well, but I don't want to turn this into a commercial advertisement...

Of course, Lasershow Converter MAX is not free, but then, neither is the combination of Illustrate and Anarchy. However, if you are looking to cut costs, there is another 3D program that is easier to use than 3D Studio MAX, and also far less expensive:
http://www.maxon.net/pages/products/...inema4d_e.html

We have a converter for this program which is free for many Pangolin users:
http://www.pangolin.com/LD2000/lc4d_overview.htm

I see no point in 3d animation. First if you really complex your galvos will not handle it. If you do mid complex animation back faces will be visible and animation will be a visual mess. Only 1% of 3d animation is actually usable. Like geo figures and such. I tried 3d - mostly I don't like it.

Actually I agree with you that when using Illustrate and other programs, there are real limits to what can be done and still look good on the scanners. But during the development of LC-MAX, we basically figured out how to optimize the process and the results (I am not talking about path optimization -- I am talking about results optimization, as in, what you see on the screen). As proof: in recent years, two-out-of-three ILDA Award winners in the graphic category have been done using 3D Studio MAX and the Lasershow Converter MAX plug-in. So it is clear that the right tool can give great results. I am sure people who attended PL meetings can tell you of complete shows that were made using LC-MAX.

Best regards,

William Benner

[James Lehman]

Anarchy is not a required program for his method. LaserBoy is.

James.

[Dr Laser]

I was sitting and waiting when Pangolin Bill comes to picture)
Bill I'm not attacking Max converter. I'm not even questioning it's better performance and abilities. I also know that Lasershow hardware company is hard to run and every sale of any kind is a big plus for the company. My tutorial is just a expression of me trying to find some wired ways of doing things. Sometimes they work great sometimes not so. First there is only 1 extra program is needed. Illustrate is a 3D Max plugin. Second to get all Pangolin feature you need TO BUY the system. I already have mine and I'm loving it. And last...... Max Converter only works if you have Pangolin card. As long as it will stay this way there is no reason to argue or compare things. It's like me comming to anateur forum and telling them to buy DSP to get Protize. Illustrate is only 400$. Compare to 4000$ for Pangolin card and MAx converter.

PS. Anarchy was used as a VIEWER!! and is not part of a process.

[Pangolin]

I was sitting and waiting when Pangolin Bill comes to picture).

So are you saying that this whole thing was just to provoke a reaction from me?

Bill I'm not attacking Max converter.

I never said you were.

I'm not even questioning it's better performance and abilities.

And I never said you were doing this either...

I also know that Lasershow hardware company is hard to run and every sale of any kind is a big plus for the company.

I don't understand your point. Are you implying that every post that I make is intended to make a sale, and thus be a big plus for the company?

My tutorial is just a expression of me trying to find some wired ways of doing things.

Yes, I know that, which is why I congratulated you for sharing your knowledge and experience.

I saw your post for what it was. So why can't you see my post in the same light?

And last...... Max Converter only works if you have Pangolin card.

For now, but this can change at any time

As long as it will stay this way there is no reason to argue or compare things.

Well I will point out it is not me who is arguing here. I congratulated you for sharing your knowledge and experience, and stated that I am sure people will have fun with it. I was merely pointing out an alternative which some people might not be aware of.

Is your position that I am not allowed to do this?

It's like me comming to anateur forum and telling them to buy DSP to get Protize. Illustrate is only 400$. Compare to 4000$ for Pangolin card and MAx converter.

Incidentally, I find your post ironic. You claim it is me who is argumentative and comparing things, and yet clearly your tone is argumentative and comparing things...

In any event, I merely wanted to point out that there is an alternative. You made a broad statement that, for you, you see no point in 3D animation. I wanted to point out that, although you might see it that way, there are many who do not, and although you are not having much luck with illustrate (aside from simple geometric figures), there are plenty of people who are having success doing complete laser shows with another tool.

The thing that is SUPPOSED to make PL so great is that there are a variety of opinions. I see James Lehman making posts about the virtues and capabilities of Laserboy, and, although I see these A LOT, you don't see me blasting him about being argumentative and comparing things. So likewise I don't think it is fair to blast me for making a post that provides true information for people who might otherwise get only one side of the story (in this case, the side that there is "no point in 3D animation")...

Best regards,

William Benner

[drlava]

I think that if anything, using the illustrate!,(Laserboy/Anarchy) combination is a good hobbyist intro to 3D animation (and it works for all versions of 3ds max) and when people want to move to the next level, MC is there. I doubt it will hurt sales, just the opposite!

The thing I was finding with using extruded text splines was that ilustrate! renders the front and rear face edges when they are visible, no matter how thin the extrusion is. This results in the text and other figures being outlined twice in many cases. I wrote a mini data reducer that clears this up, giving only one line at the edges, as you can see in thte demo. Hopefully I can enter this code into laserboy sooner rather than later.

[James Lehman]

For God's sake Bill. You can't be The King and eat with the peasants too.

PL is primarily an amateur's forum. Many of us are looking for alternatives to Pangolin; not just to avoid the cost, but to broaden the horizon of possibility and general knowledge of how this stuff is done.

James.

[Dr Laser]

Like people said most of us are amateurs...even that I'm doing shows professionally I'm still amateur especially that I have to get all my stuff myself without any investments from the side. Dropping 8K in one shot is a HUGE blow for my budget.

So are you saying that this whole thing was just to provoke a reaction from me?

No I just knew that you will come and comment on this topic. I even knew what you are going to say. I'm not provoking anyone I'm just sharing what I found. And if at least 1 or 2 people find info usable - I'm a happy guy.

Actually simple figures I used in tutorial...all because I was lazy. Also did I mentioned Max converter anywhere in this tutorial or the topic???.... no I didn't. So I wasn't comparing things because there was only one tutorial and only one routine. Bringing Max converter in the picture thats when it's all started. I was wondering myself why max converted has anything to do with this topic. It's like me going to Pang's forum and in Max converter section bringing Illustrate to the picture... I don't do that.

My respect to Pangolin is boundless. Bill is one of god fathers of lasershows and I adore Traceit. but I don't go to not related topics and post whats looks like ad.

[Pangolin]

For God's sake Bill. You can't be The King and eat with the peasants too.

I am not sure if I understand your statement. If you are implying that I am king and the folks on PL are merely peasants, then I am happy to spend my time giving advice and lending wisdom, as I have done for several years here, as well as on the LaserFreak forum in Germany. And I don't think that hanging out with the folks from PL and Laserfreak diminishes my throne in any way .

PL is primarily an amateur's forum. Many of us are looking for alternatives to Pangolin; not just to avoid the cost, but to broaden the horizon of possibility and general knowledge of how this stuff is done.

I certainly don't mind presenting alternatives, cutting costs and broadening horizons. In fact, I congratulated Doc on sharing, but also wanted to broaden the horizons of his own post, which seemed to imply that 3D was worthless (paraphrasing a little, but you can go back and read his posts and judge for yourself). In the absence of any additional information, Doc's post might be absolutely and entirely correct, but 3D is not worthless as long as you have the right tools.

In any event, I get the impression that you and Doc are saying that basically, there are only amatuers here, and that only the most elite professionals could afford a system like Pangolin, and thus, anything I have to say about our system is useless information. If this is what you are implying, then I disagree with this sentiment, becuase it tends to ignore the results of the poll that is done every once in a while called "What is everybody using". The PL poll tends to show that many folks on PL are indeed using Pangolin. This sentiment also tends to ignore the fact that, at the recent SELEM meeting, the vast majority of the folks there also had Pangolin.

Let me reiterate that I think Doc did a fine job with his posting about how to do 3D laser shows. But there are alternatives -- that is, alternatives to that which Doc presented, with alternative results. And given the fact that there are many PL members who are Pangolin users, I think my post was just as valuable as Doc's.

And this isn't about making sales because many Pangolin users receive Lasershow Converter 4D free with our software. And Cinema 4D is much less expensive than 3D Studio MAX and also easier to use. So if you guys are really interested in helping people save money, then the combination of our system and Cinema 4D is far less expensive than 3D Studio MAX and Illustrate. When you factor in that most people already have a Pangolin system, then the only additional cost would be that of Cinema 4D itself.

How's that for presenting alternatives, cutting costs and broadening horizons?

Best regards,

William Benner

[James Lehman]

It's gonna' take me a while to come up with a response to this.....

But it will be real.

I just got off a real train of honest to God live Jazz played by real (young) people and a lot of food and drink. hic... hic... hic... I have just seen the best of what humanity has to offer to all of us as a willing audience... Absolutely awesome!

Wooooooooooo Hooooooooooooo. I'm off to the Dairy Mart for more Beer!

Love Y'all.......

James.

[Dr Laser]

What what you're saying that Max converter saves everything in 3d and somehow without masking anything makes back faces invisable? Magic I say. If you created a full show in 3ds max and rander in as a 2d noone will see the difference. It will still have a right perspective and volume. The only downfall that you'll not be able to rotate anything. I have a fly simulator for my system and yes it has 3d landscapes and yes you need it because of free control. I have a Wolf3d like game as well and it has 3d envoroments because noone knows where you gonna go and what you are going to do. Also I have a 3d ability for 3d glasses. It may be usable if everybody @ venue have 3d glasses. A lasershow is just a movie with no free control.

PS the only thing about Protize (3d Max converter for DSP) for example is that it makes line edns fade and does color shading which makes an AWESOME effect.

Once again. There are many people with different systems. If Max converter and Cinema 4d converter were avalable for a price which didn't include the price of a card then there was a very different story.

And BTW Pang will not be able to open Laserboy's ILDAs anyways.