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Thread: ILDA Format

  1. #11
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    You make alot of sense except when it come to the extension..

    I am an IT guy. I deal allot with file extensions.
    here is an example of what im talking about

    lets take ANY standard file format, open or not.

    PDF = can be read by ANY version of adobe reader (some features will not be available, but you can always at least read the text)

    DXF = No bones about it, this is a STANDARD when it comes to vector drawing.

    DOC = a file created in word 2003 can be read in word 97, again there may be some formatting loss, but you can always read the words.

    When microsoft abandon the FORMAT they abandon the EXTENTION as well

    Word 2007, whos files can not be read by word 2003 or word 97, uses the DOCX extention.

    I can not think of a single time that a file format was completely changed, that it did not get a new extension.

    What you are doing does not conform to best practices. If newer software can tell if its 1 2 3 4 5 by the header and can read all 5 formats, and older software asumes that all .ild is format 123 based, then the Best Practice is to specify that a .ild is only to be used for format 123 and that .ildx (or whatever) can contain any of the formats and should be traslated based on its header.

    and if your worried about all the format 45 .ild thats out there already, no problem, just always read format from the header..


    This allows .ild to work in all old software no matter what because it will always be format 123, AND this transitions over to the new format cleanly and gives you even more seperation from the old format by auto saving changed art in the new format by default (making older formats selectable of course).

    you are COMPLETELY changing the STANDARD for the FORMAT so you have got to change the extension.

    unless you are trying to force people to buy NEW software...

    ildx or ilda works for me
    Last edited by keeperx; 10-31-2008 at 07:06.

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    oh just thought of another one.. mp3 mp4 (as audio extension)

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    The ILDA standard explicitly says to check the header format code and skip formats that are not recognized. So, if someone implemented the standard correctly and only supports format 0, a format 1,2,3,4, or 5 section should not cause a problem. The colors might all be hosed up but it should still load and work. Or at the least, the software should recognize that the format is not supported and give a nice message.

    Also, it is VERY poor practice to force a file extension on anyone. I don't care if someone names all of their ILDA files with extensions of .DOG, .CAT, or .XML.

    File are extensions are nice for the user or OS to see and kind of guess what the file is but that is it. What if I go and name all of my old .ILD files to have your new .ILDX extension? Have the files actually changed formats? No. So what good is it, really?

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    Quote Originally Posted by keeperx View Post
    oh just thought of another one.. mp3 mp4 (as audio extension)
    AVI - same extension and sometimes completely different

  5. #15
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    ...

    ildx or ilda works for me [/QUOTE]

    I hate to be a bastard, but .ild is a recognized international standard and YOU cant amend it without being part of the ILDA board, and it takes 2 years to do it.
    OK somebody not knowing the history or running windows 95 renames a .ildx file a .ild, and now you cant load it. TOO much confusion.

    If your not on the techcomm and not doing it officially, its NOT ILD
    ie
    How about .lsr ? .plf (photon lexicon format) .vla (vector laser art)

    If your not a member of ilDA, stop calling your changed format ILDA.

    Steve




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    Last edited by mixedgas; 10-31-2008 at 07:54. Reason: I'm pissed at the arrogance

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    Quote Originally Posted by carmangary View Post
    The ILDA standard explicitly says to check the header format code and skip formats that are not recognized. So, if someone implemented the standard correctly and only supports format 0, a format 1,2,3,4, or 5 section should not cause a problem. The colors might all be hosed up but it should still load and work. Or at the least, the software should recognize that the format is not supported and give a nice message.
    I agree, but where is the art. the vector can not be read. i just gave my friend a ild file that is format 5 and he reads it and its "empty" as far as his software is concerned. how do I as a non technical artist know what to do?

    Do i need to understand all this stuff about the format or should i say "do you want that in ild or ildx format".. the latter is easier

    Also, it is VERY poor practice to force a file extension on anyone. I don't care if someone names all of their ILDA files with extensions of .DOG, .CAT, or .XML.
    So why have extensions at all. who needs em?

    File are extensions are nice for the user or OS to see and kind of guess what the file is but that is it. What if I go and name all of my old .ILD files to have your new .ILDX extension? Have the files actually changed formats? No. So what good is it, really?
    Extensions are used to organize files. It allows us to QUICKLY discover the FORMAT of a file THATS WHAT AN EXTENSION IS FOR.

    Now we have plainly agreed that ILDA123 is NOT ILDA45, they are different formats like |DXF and DWG| or |DOC and XML| or |PHP and ASP|

    Why do 2 files of completely different formats have the same extension?
    what other software company does that?
    maybe you should read some literature on open standards and best practices.


    I really don't care because i can read any of the formats and store all my stuff in format 3 because it makes the most sense.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by mixedgas View Post
    ...

    I hate to be a bastard, but .ild is a recognized international standard and YOU cant amend it without being part of the ILDA board, and it takes 2 years to do it.
    OK somebody not knowing the history or running windows 95 renames a .ildx file a .ild, and now you cant load it. TOO much confusion.

    If your not on the techcomm and not doing it officially, its NOT ILD
    ie
    How about .lsr ? .plf (photon lexicon format) .vla (vector laser art)

    If your not a member of ilDA, stop calling your changed format ILDA.

    Steve




    Roberts
    confused.. who is calling what changed format ild-anything
    we are talking about ilda not some different version of it..

  8. #18
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    FYI, im a debater... its a sport.. please do not get offended or upset with me over this discussion, just kinda felt that this side of the argument deserved some attention.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by keeperx View Post
    I agree, but where is the art. the vector can not be read. i just gave my friend a ild file that is format 5 and he reads it and its "empty" as far as his software is concerned. how do I as a non technical artist know what to do?

    Do i need to understand all this stuff about the format or should i say "do you want that in ild or ildx format".. the latter is easier



    So why have extensions at all. who needs em?



    Extensions are used to organize files. It allows us to QUICKLY discover the FORMAT of a file THATS WHAT AN EXTENSION IS FOR.

    Now we have plainly agreed that ILDA123 is NOT ILDA45, they are different formats like |DXF and DWG| or |DOC and XML| or |PHP and ASP|

    Why do 2 files of completely different formats have the same extension?
    what other software company does that?
    maybe you should read some literature on open standards and best practices.


    I really don't care because i can read any of the formats and store all my stuff in format 3 because it makes the most sense.
    Well, I'll just agree to disagree. I have read and think I understand all of the nuances of the ILDA spec and have implemented all versions of it and based on what I read and what I discovered by actually working with them I stand by what I have said.

    You are right. File extensions can be used to organize files and offer clues to what they are. But, nothing prevents you from naming your files whatever you want. Software has to be smart enough to be able to identify what is in the file by its contents, not by extension.

    But you are wrong about ILDA files because format 0 and format 5 are not completely different no more than format 2 and 3 or 1 and 4 or whatever are different. They all have common portions that make them all ILDA files. I hate to be condescending but I think you should actually read the standards and understand them before offering technical opinions on them. It sounds like you are just repeating what James may have told you.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by keeperx View Post
    i just gave my friend a ild file that is format 5 and he reads it and its "empty" as far as his software is concerned. how do I as a non technical artist know what to do?
    You know 1 of 2 things: Either 1) the software you used to create the file did not implement format 5 correctly, or else 2) your friend's software doesn't implement format 5 correctly.

    The ILDA standard specifies exactly what the software is supposed to do. If I had created the file in Mamba, I can load it in Pangolin. If I created it in Pangolin, I can load it in Full-Auto. If I created it in Full Auto, I can load it in LA-Studio... If I created it in LA-Studio I can load it in Spaghetti. All of these programs work together because they follow the ILDA standard.

    When Gary wrote his Spaghetti software, he made sure to look up the ILDA standard so he could correctly implement all versions of the ILDA file format. And, wisely, he disabled the ability to save in format 3, since it's no longer an official standard. (Although he chose to implement a format 3 reader, just in case he ran across any of those files.) If you have a piece of software that does *not* read or write the file(s) correctly, then the problem is the software, NOT the standard.
    Do i need to understand all this stuff about the format or should i say "do you want that in ild or ildx format".. the latter is easier
    No, the latter explicitly breaks the ILDA file format standard by making an exception for the one piece of software in your example that doesn't work correctly. There's no need for an .ildx standard. Furthermore, using such an extension would only serve to dilute the utility of having a single ILDA standard for all laser show software to use to interchange files. Think about it... If you implement a new file format, *all* other software needs to be re-written to support it. Does that sound "easier"?
    Now we have plainly agreed that ILDA123 is NOT ILDA45, they are different formats like |DXF and DWG| or |DOC and XML| or |PHP and ASP|
    They are different in their details, yes. However, nearly all laser show software out there (both commercial and freeware) can load all 5 types and differentiate between them. That's all detailed in the ILDA file format standard. So while they have their differences, they are all ILDA files.
    Why do 2 files of completely different formats have the same extension?
    what other software company does that?
    Lots of companies do this. It's called backward-compatibility. There are files out there from the early 1990's that are still being used. There are also files that were just created yesterday. Both of these files can be loaded and used on software that correctly implements the ILDA standard.
    maybe you should read some literature on open standards and best practices.
    Careful... That's pretty insulting to both Bill and Gary. They've both done *more* than enough reading on the subject already. Each has been involved in the software industry for a couple decades.

    Don't forget that the ILDA standard was designed by committee. Bill has pointed out several times that if it were his decision alone, changes would have been made to the standard. But that's not how it works when you have a bunch of competing egos on a large committee. I'm surprised you're so willing to make assumptions about Bill's programming ability based on just the ILDA standard, especially when he didn't have that much to do with it in the first place. You might want to at least talk to him on the phone first...
    I really don't care because i can read any of the formats and store all my stuff in format 3 because it makes the most sense.
    If it makes sense to you, that's one thing. But you're arguing for changing the ILDA standard just because format 3 makes more sense to you... That's not rational. If you want to use format 3, there's nothing stopping you. But you really should name it something other than ILDA-anything, because it's *not* an ILDA file. (This gets back to the whole open-standards point you mentioned above.)

    Why not call it an .fmt3 file or something...

    Adam
    Last edited by buffo; 10-31-2008 at 08:54.

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