Who's doing a NYE show?

[keeperx]

i can agree to that, but in the US we call em Gun RIGHTS

[mccarrot]

Scanrate got limited effect on save audiance scanning

[Stuka]

Not the scanrate but the speed you move the image over the audiance.

There are many many factors, but distance got the most effect on those factors.

I tried to understand the MPE calculations but this is hard to use in real life. After I talked to Hugo about this topic and attended many of his shows I finnaly start to understand the mistery of audiance scanning.

But discussing audiance scanning is always a hard topic on this forum (kinda like discussing the GUN privaliges in the USA )

Please let try to discuss this in a normal way and don't start bashing audiance scanning

Seriously, NO audience scanning bashing intended!

But, it is a topic that understandably gets a LOT of attention on this forum. However, of all the (sometimes VERY deep) topics that get are covered on the forum, it seems that the actual details of what is considered safe and generally acceptable audience scanning practices never gets discussed! I would think that if a little more information WERE divulged, audience scanning discussions might get a "warmer reception".

Otherwise, you're right -

without knowing the details first hand, audience scanning could very well get the same type of backlash as, say, the "discussion" of US gun ownership by someone who has never lived in the US!

An example "tidbit" that would be interesting to know:

You mentioned "distance" as one of your safety factors.
So do you guys work by a "rule of thumb", where for "x amount of laser power" requires "X amount of distance" between the audience and the laser?

[Lasernerd]

Good idea!!
Give us some real time data,,this is good to know.
but yeah,,,I am all about the overhead beams!

[mccarrot]

However, of all the (sometimes VERY deep) topics that get are covered on the forum, it seems that the actual details of what is considered safe and generally acceptable audience scanning practices never gets discussed! I would think that if a little more information WERE divulged, audience scanning discussions might get a "warmer reception".

........

You mentioned "distance" as one of your safety factors.
So do you guys work by a "rule of thumb", where for "x amount of laser power" requires "X amount of distance" between the audience and the laser?

Most times when when audiance scanning is discussed people start to talk about MPE calculations, but in real live its simply impossible to do MPE calculation. here is the reason: Most shows are done with livepro, with livepro you have total control over the laser so it's hard to tell what frame you are producing, so how can you do MPE calculation from a frame you don't know yet you are going to produce this event.

Offcourse you MUST know the basics of MPE calculations.

Also you cannot take distance x power as a factor alone. Because if you point a static beam in the audiance with only 100mW at 50 meters you will be in trouble.

here are some thumb rules I use

- Use the biggest distance as possible to the audiance. (so if the location is very small just don't do it)
- Always keep the image moving!
- Scan as wide as possible.
- Use lots of smoke. (not too much, but with more smoke you need less power)
- Use just enough power to create the visual effect. (you dont need to use a 1W laser always at 1 W) Keep in mind when audiance scanning you need much less power to create te same visual effect compared to overhead projecting.

Most of the mystery is understanding wat will happen to the MPE at different scenes (eg distance, image moving speed, scan angle, etc. etc. etc.) and the use of you common sense and experience.

But keep in mind i'm NOT an expert, this is only my experience and ONLY for discussion in this forum!!!

[Lasermad]

Andy ...dont normally do this .... BUT ! told you so !!

[Stuka]

Most times when when audiance scanning is discussed people start to talk about MPE calculations, but in real live its simply impossible to do MPE calculation. here is the reason: Most shows are done with livepro, with livepro you have total control over the laser so it's hard to tell what frame you are producing, so how can you do MPE calculation from a frame you don't know yet you are going to produce this event.

Offcourse you MUST know the basics of MPE calculations.

Also you cannot take distance x power as a factor alone. Because if you point a static beam in the audiance with only 100mW at 50 meters you will be in trouble.

here are some thumb rules I use

- Use the biggest distance as possible to the audiance. (so if the location is very small just don't do it)
- Always keep the image moving!
- Scan as wide as possible.
- Use lots of smoke. (not too much, but with more smoke you need less power)
- Use just enough power to create the visual effect. (you dont need to use a 1W laser always at 1 W) Keep in mind when audiance scanning you need much less power to create te same visual effect compared to overhead projecting.

Most of the mystery is understanding wat will happen to the MPE at different scenes (eg distance, image moving speed, scan angle, etc. etc. etc.) and the use of you common sense and experience.

But keep in mind i'm NOT an expert, this is only my experience and ONLY for discussion in this forum!!!

Cool info -
Nice to read how folks actually do that in the "real world"!
Thanks for sharing!

[rfourt]

Working with "Lasermedia" here in sweden back in the 90´s we had a Co2-argon-krypton producing 4-6Watt.

Under the 5years i worked with them doing 1-2shows a week (we did alot of shows in the nordic countrys) But we never heard anything about a person who got injured etc. and we did audience scaning 99% of our shows. sometimes with more power then 4Watt but we usually ran it at 2-3 just to save its lifetime.

Im not a proffessor in the maths and other tech stuff, but i have alot experiance working with lasers and lasershows, so from that we normally had the laser behind the DJ or live act and they are usualy on a a stage wich will place the laser 1th output beam about 1-2Meter above the audience heads. And about 5-10meters away from the first person in the crowd. With the angle of the scaners set pritty low i would say that the first person who could get hit in the eye by a beam when doing a really wide animation would probably be around 20meters away.

Although i remember we never did any Beamshows at the height of the crowd as that would defenatly smoked there eyes of 100% (10-24channels Actuators) But animations such as tunnels or waves etc where no problem at all.

The beam are really wide that far away about the size of a golfball or even wider when lit thru the scanners. So from my experiance i would say just be carefull to not ues any static beams and keep a good distance.

As im no techie about the numbers and such i can only go on from what ive seen in real life and what most european and asian shows are doing everyday i would say, Dont do any static beams Anitmation is safe+the distance.

But dont use Pulsed lasers like the russians did. then it dosnt matter.

I know you all know this and some of you guys can probably count 1287461289476 + 236236 x 1245125=??? in your head, and know exactly how to build an argontube from a bag of chips and a 9Volt battery. All respect to you, But from experiance the "Warning stickers" are !Recomended Warnings! You should obey them, im not saying anything else but its not always what it seems to be in the book.

Dont really remember but i think i saw an interview with some ILDA head manager after the russian incident and before that there had only been one more reported incident in like 20years.

LoveParade 100 000 People around Alexander plaze with a 60Watt show
Mayday partys (not alive anymore i think?) 80 000ppl
sensation partys (50 000)
IBIZA
Mallorca
Gran Canarie
and 1000s of other places doing audience scanning every night...
Ive never heard of an eye damage/injury accept from my own, staring down the beamtable to many hours.

The book says its dangeruos and it is, but bend the beams and use animation and distance and it safe, not 100% but safe.

If the book would say it is safe they could get sued for alot of cash especially in the country we all know so they play it safe

IM NOT RECOMENDING ANYTHING BY THIS POST!! JUST EXPLAINING OWN EXPERIANCE!

[mccarrot]

Dont really remember but i think i saw an interview with some ILDA head manager after the russian incident and before that there had only been one more reported incident in like 20years.

There is a Huge difference betreen reported incidents and people with eye damage.
I'm sure there are a lot of people who have laser eye damage but not knowing they have eye damage.
Most eye damage from lasers people wont even notice because they will think they are floaters.

Al lot of people on this forum learned the danger of laser the hard way.(including myself)
The damage is most of the time minimal and will not affect your daily life. But all this eyedamage is caused by themselfs. But when you are responsible for the eyes of 10000 people its a whole different story...

[keeperx]

BTW to everyone.. always talking about beam width and safety.. remember that the eye is a lense




and even what may look like a "fat" beam can be focused by the eye..
especialy if you have hyperopia (or farsightedness as seen above)