trance energy

[JeroenVDV]

Laser Image is not Hugo. It's a Company with more than one person. Just give them a call, they're way to busy to answer all non-business mails. Phone no is on website.

[oliverst14@hotmail.com]

it would cost me more than the cameras worth. phoning the netherlands is internatinal call rates meaning at least 5x my normal call rate

id prefer to email them if possible

cheers ollie

[keeperx]

Well i see where you are coming from now.

I'm not sure what the best way to deal with that is other than post signs at the entrances or hand out safety fliers.

The Venue and production company are the ones in charge of this.. but it IS the laserists job to inform the production company about this danger..

Politics aside, this is an issue that i have seen come up a few times and never seen a absolute resolution or ruling on. Now if i have seen it a few times im sure that it MUST be common as i am barely a laserist at this point, Im still using hobby photons

[White-Light]

I've been expecting this for years..

Laser power is getting higher and higher on parties, and as you can see at the posted video, there are 13x 10W 532nm lasers (OK, not running at full power) with VERY low divergence (OPSL) scanning the audience from less than 20m distance with very dangerous beam-frames.......

Is there still ANYBODY here thinking there are calculations being done for those shows?

Normally I never question Hugos shows, they always push the limits safely but the Youtube video does appear to see the camera sensor whiting out entirely when taking a direct laser hit. That doesn't look at all safe.

In the UK they have to meter the shows to check. I wonder if that was done here?

I just came back from UKLEM having used my camera there directly into Pelosh's 3W spectrum from 20-30 feet and I recorded no problems with the patterns he was running. However, at TE those were pencil beam effects and some that affected the camera appeared to be moving a little slowly. I very much fear looking at the video that not only was MPE exceeded at that show but also the safety margins as well. Cameras usually are the 1st indicators of something thats wrong from what I've seen in the past. However, I'm no expert so wouldn't want to accuse anyone falsely of anything. The video does make me concerned though.

[oliverst14@hotmail.com]

this is the same as me. i dont want to accuse a well respected laserist of causing an unsafe show but this does look a little suspect.
i do hope its just my camera fault but suspect not. i have alot of respect for hugo and have told him do before but im wondering if this show was done by someone else in the company that this person did not have the same eye for safety as hugo does.

i am speaking with ilda at the moment and hope to resolve it.

currently they are saying that its my fault for pointing a camera at it but they are going to keep in touch. (they are not this blunt but i cant type all what they said)

if anyone wants i will forward the email to you.

cheers ollie

[keeperx]

you can always post it here.. im interested to see how this plays out because this is one of those things that it would be nice to have resolution on.. at least to set a president

[JeroenVDV]

No meters at shows like this. Lasers were rigged at moving trusses so safe zones at one moment change to crowd scanning zones within seconds.

Hugo doesnt do all those shows, most shows are even done by other people working for him. Also this show.

[oliverst14@hotmail.com]

Oliver --

Ah, I have damaged a couple of cameras also, due to laser beams entering the lens and causing burn spots on the sensor. I am genuinely sorry to hear of your situation.


Hugo is often away from The Netherlands, and is sometimes difficult for us to contact. I suspect you are having the same problem; I do not think he is avoiding you. I will send a copy of this to his normal email address, and also a BCC to a private email I have for him. I will ask Hugo to respond to you.


Although you didn't ask, here is my opinion on this issue.


In general, I believe damage to photo sensors is the viewer's responsibility. A laser show is designed for human viewing with the unaided eye. If the show is safe for the eye, then it has met its moral and (I believe) legal responsibility. For example, a person might come to the show with a fast f/2.8 or f/1.4 lens, and put it on a tripod which is at the closest audience distance. The laser show producer should not be expected to know whether or how much the person's lens will concentrate the laser light, or how sensitive the person's sensor is.


Now, I have a couple of "fine points" or details about this.


First, if the laser show producer is doing a show for a client who has video cameras in operation (a TV show, or a corporate show with image magnification), the producer has a responsibility to warn the client not to have the video cameras -- which are often very expensive! -- look directly at the laser beams. The laser show producer would have to work with the client to avoid damage. If you were a client of Hugo then I would perceive the situation differently.


Second, I said "if the show is safe for the eye, it has met its responsibility." I mean this in two ways:

• If the beams in the show have an irradiance which, at the point of closest human access, is below the Maximum Permissible Exposure for the human eye, then the show is inherently safe for the human eye according to international laser safety standards such as IEC 60825 and ANSI Z136.
• The other meaning of "safe" is that the show does not cause any injury, complaint or other user-detectable change to the eye. The laser beams may in fact be above the MPE level. But if no person in the audience has any change in their vision, then the laser has not caused any detriment.

I have written a paper for the 2009 International Laser Safety Conference which discusses this second point. It notes that in 40 years of audience scanning, often at irradiances far beyond the MPE, there have been very, very few reports of injury -- much less actual, proven injuries. (The paper is online at ILDA's website, at http://www.laserist.org/files/audien...rview_2pt1.pdf )


Note that both parts of my second point deal with the human eye, not camera sensors. However, let's say for purposes of discussion that your camera sensor would be fine at a show with beam irradiances under the MPE, but that your camera sensor would be damaged at a show with higher power beams. Let's also say that no one at the higher-power show had any complaint, injury or detectable change. Let's even say that eye doctors came in and examined everyone and did not find any eye damage or change.


My philosophical conclusion has to be the same: The laser show producer is responsible for eye-safe use of the laser. He must have an eye-safe show. However, it is unreasonable to ask him to be responsible for any third-party use of lenses, cameras, etc. which he does not control. There are simply too many variables where the camera can let in a lot more light, or the sensor can be more sensitive than the human eye.


I do appreciate you writing to ILDA, and considering the points I made above. Please let me know if Hugo does not respond within a week or so; I will try to track him down.

this was sent from ilda in reply to my message. iv left the name of the person that sent off the email for legal purposes

cheers ollie

[oliverst14@hotmail.com]

I do agree with what was said but still feel that for people who dont know anything about lasers this is not the attitude to have. At large laser shows i feel a warning should be present warning of possible damage from such devices as laser and crowd surges.

im still in talking with ilda and have asked for the mpe calculations and risk assesments.

ill share if the send them which i doubt

cheers ollie

[keeperx]

Im not sure you are perceiving this from their perspective Oliver.

You are coming to ilda with accusations of an unsafe show and it is their job to defend the laser display community. You are also bringing these accusations to bear on one of the most well know and respected Laserisits in the world. I think the email is well worded and quiet poignant. They have given their opinion of the issue and offered to assist you in getting ahold of hugo. What were you expecting?

And i also agree that warning signs would be nice..