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Thread: Laserworld

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by laserworld-ag View Post
    Hello, my name is Peter and I work at Laserworld AG. We usually abstain from posting in forums, because we don't need this platform for advertising, nor do we try to fight our competitors, unless of course in the competition on the market.
    But there are a few commercial users in this forum who suffered a lot by our market presence and these have been the only people doing everything to harm our reputation, because one thing is for sure: every laser we sold is one which they haven't sold.
    If some give a great review about a product of ours, these few guys post so many bad feedback that the good people just stop working at all. We want to support those a bit, that guarantee that different opinions will be expressed in this forum. But we won’t follow suite and use this as a marketing platform.


    It is always quite interesting how measurements are done in forums like these, especially if it is about competitors products.
    I won't comment on these specific measurements. I have seen many of those, and they always follow the same routine. In fact the images look as if one "lab" and setup was cloned from the other. This makes it easier to comment on such measurements in general.

    So, just make sure how we select the lasers at Laserworld: well, we measure them before they are mounted in the projector. And I don't see many alternatives to that.
    In fact when we receive the lasers, as the diodes we get from our suppliers usually have a certain range in power.
    They not only meet the minimum specs, but usually are quite above.
    Unfortunately we can not just use lasers with any arbitrary power it just happens to have, as our customers often use more than one laser, and would rightfully complain if the brightness would differ.
    Fortunately, as we build large numbers of projectors, we have the possibility to select from large numbers of lasers.
    So, as mentioned before they are measured on arrival. Any other way would be a waste of time and resources, as it is hard to see how we can efficiently build a projector and then look and see what power it will have.

    When measuring the diodes not mounted into a projector, there is, in our opinion, only one practical way to do this. Put 5V at the signal input, and measure the power coming out.
    And that's the power we guarantee, not the output power after all optics. I don't think we mentioned anything else anywhere. Or that it is feasible to do anything else.

    And that's, by the way, a measurement under reproducible conditions. I always wonder why the measurements done by competitors always contain such amounts of irreproducibility (or rather I don't so much wonder).
    Just a thought, the reflection of a window, or mirror, is depending on the angle of incident (the Fresnel equations, if I remember it right??? Or maybe I'm wrong, if so, let me apologize beforehand). Nevertheless the measurements are done in some obscure (and irreproducible) setups.
    Of course, whoever does take the measurement, generously allows for a certain amount of loss, mostly with the words "even the worst optics wouldn't loose more than x%”. Well, in fact, it depends - even for the best optics.
    But, as the measurements are usually taken with an open projector - why don't you just measure before the optics, to eliminate any such effects? Maybe because the measurements would be other - higher, and reproducible.
    To make such measurements easy, I would suggest that such experts, that always feature a lot of expensive equipment on their photos, would use a simple tool we have to make measurements in a projector - a small silver mirror on a 45° mount - just put it before the laser and measure the beam coming out upwards.

    Also, from my experience, DPSS lasers take some warm up time, especially blue ones. That's why we take always a series of measurements, not just a still that can show almost anything from zero to a short lived peak way above the normal power.
    And, again especially blue lasers, are quite sensitive to temperature, so it would be nice to know at what ambient temperature the measurements were taken.

    I also wonder why people taking such measurements at RGB lasers always complain that one colour is much too low. But they rarely complain on the colour mixing.
    Unless, of course, you remind them of that, usually they will then follow up saying that this was the case in the first place - they just didn't mention it before. (Although the reports are usually long enough.)
    Well, if I bought an RGB laser I would have 2 main issues - first, the power coming out - and second the colour (and for some of our customers this comes even first). Strange that the latter is usually forgotten in such measurement reports.

    But maybe we should first agree on how such measurements should be taken? At the diode, or after all optics?
    And it would be great if we could have a standard on what specified power means. The power installed (as I guess is necessary for the classification of the laser, I don't think the FDA would approve a classification saying, "but we loose so much power...".
    The maximum power after all optics (maximum in respect to the incident angle of the beam). Or the minimum? What about cleaning all optics before taking measurements?

    Or maybe we can agree on what a "normal" loss of optics is? For single colour setups, or RGB with dichros? Then we could surely say one laser is better than the other, as some say that a Mercedes is better than a Volkswagen.
    (And thus justify the different price - if the same logics of these experts would apply to cars, we'd all have to drive Porsche and the like - all others are inferior - and don't mind the different price).

    We would really be glad to come to a certain set of rules in this respect. Maybe we can reach a level where we have a spec saying "power according to standard X". And, of course we would have to add to standard Y, and so on... I don't think just one standard would be appropriate to such a complex matter.
    But until then we specify what we have - the power of the diodes. And as long as we don't claim anything else, I can't see why this should be deceiving. Nor do I see why we should apply to "standards" raised by our competitors on the occasion of an ad-hoc measurement.

    @mark I will not go into commenting your special measurements - why should I, you do your measurements, we do ours. And I am sure they will differ, question is why. We will measure the lasers as soon as they are back here, we have them collected from the purchaser.
    By the way, in my opinion, it is a bit strange that you posted on the very same day you received the laser, whereas the customer who bought it, and who should be the one concerned, only contacted us a few days later.
    Anyway I am a bit surprised on your general attitude. Compared at our sales in the rest of the world USA was always a minor market for us, didn't think that with these small numbers we have made us so many foes there.
    But I have to admire, that you stand up to your point. The last "major assault" on our credibility on YouTube was done from a fake address (according to the authorities), and the IPs of the posts came from a different country, such cover up makes taking steps against such infringements a bit harder, though not impossible.

    @sbk, they different photos and specs you are referring to: it seems to me, that you confused the Pro-3500RGB and the Show-3500RGB.
    In the Pro-Series we select the lasers for the needed power, so if you buy another one, you can be quite sure the brightness is comparable.
    The Show Series are rated at a wider range, this allows us to use diodes that would not fit into the narrower range of the Pro-Series lasers, but at a lower price. So the chance that 2 Show Series lasers have the same brightness is smaller.
    And yes, our dealers sell them (mostly) on ebay, because somehow it seems people there want to buy cheaper products, and we give the people what they want.
    I guess every company would (or rather should) try to sell to the people what the people want, not what competitors think would be appropriate - they have their clientele, we try to please ours.
    But we have to use the diodes somehow, if we threw those, that are bit off range, away, our lasers would be a bit more expensive...

    @all whoever is interested in having a closer look at (and inside) our products is invited to come to our stand at the Prolight + Sound in Frankfurt. On Friday afternoon, when the business is calming down (ca. 5 to 5:30 pm), we will have a more informal round with anyone interested, where we will let you have a look inside the lasers. BYOPM (Bring your own power meter)!


    Just in case it disappears... I haven't read it yet...

  2. #22
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    soforene is offline The Troll formerly known as Herbert Von Poople-Futtocks
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    Quote Originally Posted by allthatwhichis View Post
    ..Just in case it disappears...
    Why would it disappear?
    It's all a conspiracy theory by competitors who use the same Lab to take the same pictures cus they are jealous.

    Oh and all customers are dummies (including those in that tiny USA country) who don't know how to measure a lasers output cus only LaserWorld do.

    So shove that in ya pipe and smoke it............

  3. #23
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    Taking in account all of what you've said laserworld-ag (after you repeated yourself, going in circles many times), allowing warm up time, measuring before optics, in a vacuum, standing on one leg, doing a dance with a horseshoe round your neck; there is NO WAY a laser, supposedly rated at 1.7W, could jump up from 400mW to 1.7W, with those conditions. It's just not going to happen.
    When was the last time you had your meter calibrated?

    Dan

  4. #24
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    Peter are you trying to say you use the worst optics known to man? That you optics take away 2-3 watts of power? Did you really just say that?

    Stop beating around the bush. We all know what we are doing, including you. Its time to realize you need to man up in the industry if you want to survive.

  5. #25
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    peter-
    This post will serve as the calm before the storm. Perhaps give you a few hours to figure out HOW you will react to the FACTUAL FINDINGS of the 2 referenced laser systems from my tests. Please, i am sincerely asking you to read my first post because all of your so called reasons of mis-read measurements have already been addressed.

    PLEASE tell me you and your company have better explanations other than, ct lasers is jealous of us. Or that ct lasers doesnt know how to measure a laser beam. Or PLEASE tell me laserworld that the over 1 hour warm up time i gave your systems was not sufficient enough. I sincerely am hoping that you can explain your poor track record to a few of your customers here and to this board of laserists with more of an answer than- "its a conspiracy theory of small laser companies!"

    I await your reply. I will be posting IN DEPTH rebuttal to your assinine accusations and insights when i get home this evening.

    -marc
    -ct lasers
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  6. #26
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    mixedgas is offline Creaky Old Award Winning Bastard Technologist
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    begin quote.
    It is always quite interesting how measurements are done in forums like these, especially if it is about competitors products.
    I won't comment on these specific measurements. I have seen many of those, and they always follow the same routine. In fact the images look as if one "lab" and setup was cloned from the other. This makes it easier to comment on such measurements in general.

    end quote:

    Sir, That is a Scientech meter in that picture showing low power. Those don't usually drift that much. As in they DO NOT drift, Your on thin ice here my friend.

    Gottaluvlasers is a very fair reviewer, based on his track record in this forum.

    BTW, you have a lot of professionals here, and your post is just opening you up for all sorts of grief when we get done with you. NEVER blame the client is a pretty good rule, but you don't seem to realize that. Never rip off the client is another. Yeah, nightclub customers and DJs do not own laser power meters, but many of us here do, and we will call you on it if you are wrong. Btw, If you are engaged in trade in the US, and you sell a known underpowered system , and its proven in court, in many states you stand to loose treble damages plus punitive damages and court and lawyer's fees for both sides. Think about that for a minute.

    The accepted standard, industry wide, for laser power measurements , is delivered power at the projector beam exit.

    Steve
    Last edited by mixedgas; 03-17-2009 at 07:49.

  7. #27
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    ..................................

  8. #28
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    soforene is offline The Troll formerly known as Herbert Von Poople-Futtocks
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    It could be a coincidence but perhaps Laserworld have sent Peter along cus a quick google of Laserworld review shows our jolly ole site as the No. 2 hit (up from No. 7 a few months ago, Pop - Pickers).
    AMG !! (Ach Mein Gott!!) they thought. "Ve muss zend zomeone along to tell ze truth about our Vunderbar lazers!!"

    Perhaps he strolled in thinking that it's full of silly boys with laser pointers who get excited when they pop balloons and was gonna baffle us with all that techy mumbo jumbo (ad nauseum).

    If he's prepared to answer some straight questions with straight answers then there may be hope for LaserWorld yet.

    However, only time will tell .............

  9. #29
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    If I read the post of "gottaluvlasers" it looks like he has no big knowledge of lasermodules, I'm confused because he sells about the same laser-technology from a other manufacturer... but tell me something other... I don't know you?!?

    and if I read this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenshi View Post
    .....That you optics take away 2-3 watts of power? Did you really just say that?
    Does nobody of you know that a red wide stripe lasermodul with 6mm Beam Diameter never fit on a Scannermirror?


    Quote Originally Posted by mixedgas View Post
    Sir, That is a Scientech meter in that picture showing low power.
    A Scientech meter? This is a chinese powermeter which is not official callibrated... or is it a other Powermeter?? It is the same powermeter you find on every second chinese Lasersource page... but I'm very interessed to hear what your one is exactly?

    If you make measurements as a company against a other company and you make this public you have to take a callibrated brand power meter from coherent for example....


    Quote Originally Posted by mixedgas View Post
    The accepted standard, industry wide, for laser power measurements , is delivered power at the projector beam exit.
    Why do you compare this with the industry??!
    This are lasershow parts. And the most big german (I know only the products of them) Projector manufacturers of highend material show only the power of the built in lasers. One big company I know, shows the power after the dichroic mirrors, that means before the scanners... so in fact in the showlaser industry it's normal to show the power of all lasermodules....
    And with Chinese Projectors it's the same, but this is no reference....

    so I ONLY WANT TO KNOW REAL FACTS !!

  10. #30
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    Incredible statement, absolutely incredible.

    How is it possible to point blank ignore so many people saying the same thing. To suggest even for a moment there are no professionals on this forum is challenging.

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