Change to US rules - how many of you missed this? (I did...)

[mccarrot]

I'm sure there is someone who has the IEC 60825-1 on a pdf format.

Do you want to share it with the community?

If not, can't we collect money buy it and hide it at ildaswap

[mccarrot]

....But to be fair one could also put a metal cover over the projection window (which I have seen done in addition to a shutter on ion laser projectors

-Adam

If I remember well you need to block the audiance area with a metal cover, to prevent beams cannot go in the audience when not audiance scanning.

Kvan lasers have nice solution for this with there sliding front cover.

[mixedgas]

If I remember well you need to block the audiance area with a metal cover, to prevent beams cannot go in the audience when not audiance scanning.

Kvan lasers have nice solution for this with there sliding front cover.

But your missing something, if you have the prior laser safety letter, it explains that the emission indicator and key switch are for the operator, not the audience. Thus there is NO reason to point the emission led out the shutter port. Its a good idea for labbies, but is NOT the intent of CDRH to inform the audiance, its to inform the show op he has a "armed" laser.

the ^%$%# problem is the docs are not all in one place, and some people have "insider" information by keeping a 20 year supply of laser safety letters.

I knew about IEC, but my understanding was few major changes and if I wanted to use 20 watts, I had best have a shutter. I can hear the insurance guys now, well, a shutter was a good idea, but you didnt have one, you trusted a 0-5V signal for safety, and did NOT have a independent means of shutting down the projector.. bad, bad, bad, doggie, we're not gonna pay.....

Here is a test for you, key a 5 watt UHF or VHF handheld radio by your projector, see what happens. CDRH requires radio proofing on projectors, its printed on my last variance, but you sure as heck don't see it in the rules. There was a incident of g120s self distructing themselves at some show somewhere, from RF pickup, and it got injected into the rules as a precaution. I know the Canadian that had that issue,they ended up needing to RF shield their projectors and added ultra fast silicon fuses to the galvo amps. But I dare you to find that one in the IPR packet?

The rules are NOT clear. Why can some guys use black foamcore for their emission blocks and I need to use sheet metal? Its NOT spelled out.

Steve

[mixedgas]

Physical shutter seem silly with modulated DPSS.
Also I don't like having an LED beside my output window. It is too noticeable on stages.
It really doesn't add any safety.

Wrong on the shutter, I disagree. However for it to be useful, it needs to be on its own isolated circuit. There have been a number of times I've seen a CPU latch up with a effect open.

Never trust the software for safety.

See my other post on the LED.

Steve

[ElektroFreak]

^I agree with that.. the only way to guarantee safety under nearly any circumstance is to use a physical shutter.

[Doc]

I'm sure there is someone who has the IEC 60825-1 on a pdf format.

Do you want to share it with the community?

If not, can't we collect money buy it and hide it at ildaswap

And go forth to that place, and in that place doth lay the holiest of grail.

Six zero eight two five shall be the number betrothed upon its ugly face.

[Doc]

You aint seen me, I was in the pub.

[Doc]

Here is a test for you, key a 5 watt UHF or VHF handheld radio by your projector, see what happens. CDRH requires radio proofing on projectors,

This is where the IEC thing really starts to bite ass. they'll (in the UK at least) just hit you with BS (IEC) 5839: Pt6

As the product is electrical then it must reject RF interference. So 60825 only covers the actual laser specific stuff, there's all sorts of other guidelines that apply. I'm sure there will be general mechanical guidelines covering things like sharp edges, general guidelines covering the toxicity of materials. EN60730-1 / BS EN60730-2-1 guidelines cover any automated systems.

This is a minefield as so many different standards are involved. The laser part is only the tip of the iceberg.

[JStewart]

Buffo,

If you can get Casey along to one of your meetings it will be a great coup, for he is a very knowledgeable guy, and very genuine too.

With reference to IEC 60825-1, the current version does require the Power Supply Reset for Class 4 Lasers. It was a new addition in 2007.

In terms of user guidance, here in the UK the HSE have just this month taken a very positive step and made all their Guidance and ACoPs available for download free of charge. So it's now possible to get hold of a PDF version of HSG95 for the cost of a few mouse clicks.

The British Standards Institute however still charge for their publications. And when you do buy them, they have your name watermarked on every page to discourage copying. In fact an IEC document I purchased last year only works with a special plugin to Adobe, and is locked to viewing on one machine only.

These guys really want us all to spend our money on these things.

But... there are legitimate ways of accessing them from free.

There are three documents of interest.

60825-1:2007 (£190) This is the main document required by anyone manufacturing lasers. Not really much in it if you are not a manufacturer, unless you just want be curious.

60825-14:2004 (£180) This is a guide for Laser Users. It covers the general principles of laser usage, but with it being aimed at 'normal' laser usage where the intention is to isolate the beam as much as possible, there is not much that is very specific to light show applications, where we want to show everyone our beam instead.

Therefore for light show applications there is 60825-3:2008 (£80), which is a guide produced specifically for our sort of usage, and this is definitely worth a read.

This last document is available free of charge to ILDA members I believe.

Parts 1 and 14 (and 3) of the series can be accessed freely at any decent UK library. Just go to the Reference Section, and they will log you onto a computer to read it online. You are permitted to print off 10% of the document when you visit.

Alternatively, most trade associations can provide the standards at a discounted price to their members, if you want the whole thing.

It may seem mean of BSI to charge what seems like a lot of money to get hold of these documents, and I'm not defending their policy of doing so. But there are ways to get to the information for little or no cost. And as for any real business that manufactures or imports products costing thousands of £ or $, have they really got an excuse to not spend £190 to help make sure their products are legally compliant with British Safety Standards?

As for mechanical safety shutters - although no longer a standard requirement for 'minimum safety features', YES, deffo. I've seen far too many crappy solid-state projectors producing random static beams as they power off and on.

James Stewart

[Doc]

I've just had a quick mooch on the website and here's some of the guidelines they could slam you with.

IEEE C2 - Electrical code of practice
BS (IEC) EN 50419 - Labeling of electrical equipment
BS (IEC) EN 61000-6-2 - Immunity to magnetic interference
BS (IEC) EN 60335-1 - General electrical requirements
BS (IEC) EN 60825-1 - Safety of laser products
BS (IEC) EN 60825-3 - Safety of laser shows
BS (IEC) EN 60825-14 - Laser user guide
BS (IEC) EN 60950-1 - Computer control
BS (IEC) EN 61010-1 - Electronic control systems

I'm sure there are more that I've missed, but any good lawyer looking for blood and backed by the prosecution would have you over any of these guidelines if you missed something.

You can just see it in court "Tt says *clearly* here in these guidelines, in black and white, that the device *must* reject unwanted inteference, yet the device clearly did not, I call gross negligence on your part"

Scary really, I lay blame squarely at the feet of the "no win, no fee" lawyers that things are so difficult these days.

I obviously agree with the whole concept of being safe and playing safe, its just so depressing that the lawyers of this world have made everything an ass covering bullshit mission.

I have to deal with this bull every day of my life, in fact health, safety and welfare is now more than 50% of my workload as a construction manager.

It has gone so far now that we are intefering with Darwin's natural selection. The *idiots* that *should* be dead from electrocution, severed heads, disembowelment etc. are now being kept alive by idiot proofing and are walking amongst us and our children