Hey f22warzone

[mixedgas]

WE NEED TO HAVE A TALK:

AT THE OTHER PLACE, YOU WROTE:

QUOTE:

Originally Posted by f22warzone
I would have to agree with the two going angst everybody here were talking 15mw and that’s nothing if it’s moving ....... and on a speaker it will be moving almost all the time and as long as he is not staring right into the 15mw right form the laser holding it 1' in front of him for longer then blink relflex it will be fine. and the faster the fan is moving the lower the about of time that the laser will have to reflect into his eyes so in fact the faster it is moving the safer he will be.....

coming from experience I audicane scan here at home with a 1.5W laser but I do use beam mapping so the power is around 80 mw for eye height then you have fog to throw in there and divergence and scanning is safe it doesn’t heart to look into it because its only in your eyes for less than that 1/100th of a second...... also I have caught a reflection of my 1.5W off of the glass door before now that was really bright and caused a bit of disorientation for about 1 min and then vision I back to normal no spots or anything and I have done this a few times with my rpl and 200mw laser

Just saying yes you only have 2 eyes but sometimes we here are a bit too worried about it especially if it’s only 15 mw.

END QUOTE.

WE NEED TO HAVE A CHAT ON SAFETY...

STEVE

[buffo]

I was surprised to read his post as well, Steve. I really thought he was smarter than that.

Adam

[f22warzone]

Sorry to disappoint me stupidly made that post.

I must admit though I am much safer then that normally and have only done the audience scanning once with just me to see how it was..... The laser was a little too bright even with thick fog and being about 8m away. It was set at 10% power for that zone so it may have been more or less than 80 mw depending on modulation.

While I am glad you brought my wrong to my attention I think a simple pm would have been much more efferent and I have deleted all the bad post from the lpf forum and have further asked for my quote to be deleted.
and would be nice if you could delete my quote on here also.

like I put their the one accident was caused when I was setting up and doing a test run to make sure everything was good to go and I looked up to the blinds being open causing a reflection in my face. From then on though I have made sure that they have been close as again you only have one set of eyes and need to take care of them.

I was wrong on beam speed to in that it does nothing to help you it looks like...... I am deeply sorry about my stupidity and will try to be safer to myself. but for my defense I have never and will never expose my audience to any harm as I do test runs by myself to make sure everything is good to go....... and I have not audience scanned with anybody else but me. : ) so I am safe just not with myself : (

[gottaluvlasers]

Admitting ones wrong is admirable. All good man!

I really dont think its a huge deal. Its a little different over there i think because alot of the people there arent as up on the safety as over here.

and in all honesty, i fear a couple hundred mW pointer MUCH MORE than i fear a multi-watt module. a handheld laser has much more potential to lase in an unplanned manner. or accidentally lase. or point toward things that can reflect hazardously. a module is much more easily "controllable."

As far as you and your 1.5W in your house....as cool as it may look sometimes...it just aint worth it!!! be careful man!!!

-Marc

[ElektroFreak]

Its a little different over there i think because alot of the people there arent as up on the safety as over here.

That's the key. When dealing with safety on LPF it's best for everything to be simple and black and white IMO. Everything over 5mW is dangerous. Period.

[buffo]

Part of the problem at LPF is that you have people who are popular (but not knowledgeable) offering advice which is then taken as gospel. So someone with more information (but a lower "rep") has a hard time getting people to listen to the truth. Couple this with the fact that there are *so many* newbies there that really have no clue what to do (so they just take the advice of the "popular" guy), and you've got a situation where someone can cause real harm by speaking up when they really don't know what they're talking about.

For example, in the thread in question, the leap was made very early on from "a mirror glued to a speaker" to "audience-scanning systems used in projectors". Of course, projectors have galvos with tiny, light weight mirrors that can move much faster (and through greater angles of rotation) than a heavy mirror glued to a speaker cone. Yet this fact wasn't even mentioned until page 2, and even then no one really bothered to explain why it was significant.

More to the point, no one has yet mentioned any of the MPE calculations needed to determine if the effect is safe. And because of this, they've missed a key fact. Remember that it's not beam power, but irradiance (or power per unit area) that is important. Thus the statements that "15 mw is safe" or "15 mw is unsafe" are both equally wrong, since without a beam diameter measurement (and at least an approximation of the divergence) you can't know if it's safe or not. This was never discussed in the thread, even by the purported experts who claimed to understand the issue.

F22, your post was just the icing on an otherwise lousy cake to begin with. It seems that at LPF, when people can't post facts, they post anecdotes instead, believing them to be just as good. Of course, this is completely wrong, but try explaining that to the LPF crowd. "Zomg! I totally lazored my eyes with my eleventy-hundred milliwatt pointer and I'm not blind yet, so it must be safe!"

This sort of nonsense completely ignores the fact that eye damage is difficult to detect (because of the brain's natural tendency to combine information from both eyes to hide blind spots), not to mention the fact that it's possible to exceed the MPE and not get hurt just through shear dumb luck. But the MPE levels are based on controlled experiments, not anecdotal evidence, and I'll put my money on the science any day.

Bah... I've said it before and I'll say it again: it only takes a few idiots to ruin it for everyone. And over at LPF, they have more than a few idiots. Sure, they've got some smart folks too, but they can't be heard over the thundering heard of stupidity that has taken over the place. And the "rep point" system only makes it worse, in my opinion.

Adam

[ElektroFreak]

More to the point, no one has yet mentioned any of the MPE calculations needed to determine if the effect is safe. And because of this, they've missed a key fact. Remember that it's not beam power, but irradiance (or power per unit area) that is important. Thus the statements that "15 mw is safe" or "15 mw is unsafe" are both equally wrong, since without a beam diameter measurement (and at least an approximation of the divergence) you can't know if it's safe or not. This was never discussed in the thread, even by the purported experts who claimed to understand the issue.

See, I think that as useful as that info is, the answer "15mW is unsafe" is the best answer for LPF in general. If you try to introduce the real complexity of determining safety, the high rep "know it alls" that you speak of will argue and argue until they have somehow twisted their delusions into "fact", or at the very least they'll make posts endorsing their point of view and support the delusions with their high rep.. I've seen some of them argue this stuff with professionals that really know what they're talking about. Very unfortunate.

Basically, the simpler the better over there, IMO.

[buffo]

See, I think that as useful as that info is, the answer "15mW is unsafe" is the best answer for LPF in general. If you try to introduce the real complexity of determining safety, the high rep "know it alls" that you speak of will argue and argue until they have somehow twisted their delusions into "fact", or at the very least they'll make posts endorsing their point of view and support the delusions with their high rep..

You have a good point. I agree that most of the discussions on LPF do not delve into the true complexities of the issues. And perhaps for an inexperienced audience, that is preferable.

The problem with avoiding complexity is that sooner or later you'll run into a situation where the simple answer isn't sufficient. And if all people have ever heard is the simple explanation, they might think they have a full understanding of the issue when in fact they have been spoon-fed something simple just to get them started. This is where the saying "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" comes from...

That's why I'm glad that PL is different. People might still offer a "quick and dirty" answer here, but most of the time they will also explain that there is much more to the subject. Thus, people are forewarned that there is more to learn. And frequently, the simple answer is actually followed by more detailed discussion about the issue, so people who are interested in those details can continue reading (and asking questions) to learn more about the subject.

I've seen some of them argue this stuff with professionals that really know what they're talking about. Very unfortunate.

Yeah, and that's a real problem. There's no way for a new, inexperienced user to figure out who's right over there. Their whole "rep" system is full of shit, and should be abandoned. (Being popular is not the same as being right.)

Still, I'm not about to join yet another forum just so I can spend my days trying to fix what's broken over there. I'd rather stay on PL. With luck, the smart ones from LPF will figure out where the good stuff really is and join us here.

Adam

[MisterWilling]

"Zomg! I totally lazored my eyes with my eleventy-hundred milliwatt pointer and I'm not blind yet, so it must be safe!"

I think I wet myself

With luck, the smart ones from LPF will figure out where the good stuff really is and join us here.

Adam

It took me awhile to find this place but now that I have, I'm upset I wasted so much time on LPF. There's some good info over there but its coupled with noobs, kids, drama, and stupidity. I give props to the few with knowledge who somehow deal with it all and try to keep kids from blinding themselfs with their homemade $18 laser shows.

[Laserman532]

not that I have ever been involved in one...but LPF rep system reminds me of a big circle jerk, or a reach around line or something like that. I tried to hang in there, but I dont have the patience for the ignorance level. There are a hand full that are good, the rest...pfffft. I lost my password to get on it and decided not to even bother logging on or for that fact even lurking. Most of the good guys eventually leave anyway.