Safety Guidelines for would-be builders of projectors

[3ricj]

Hi there,

On this forum we have massive amounts of information about safety. But it's tossed all over the place in forum posts, frequently with different advice, comments, and arm-chair chitchat. Nothing wrong with that, but it makes things really tricky for folks getting up to speed.

I just spent the past week reading over IEC/ANSI and CDR regulations for laser emissions. This is not for a laser projector, but a very different project. I don't consider myself an expert in anything but calculating MPE with a scanning gausian beam profile over a 7mm iris. heh.

But anyway, my point: I believe folks from here and LPF should make a living document on a wiki somewhere with guidelines for projectors. Extract all of this knowledge and bind it up into an effective starting place. It's a complex subject, and will take some work..

I'm happy to contribute to this, but not willing to lead the charge.

I just wanted to start a thread so ya'll can chat about this. Maybe wikipedia is the place to document this, if photolexicon doesn't have a wiki. A google doc (which can be shared and edited by many) might also be a good place to start.

Lase on,
-3ric

[DanG]

Yeah I think there would be some trouble with that because MANY people have radically different understandings of what is or is not allowed to be done and how. There is a great deal of confusion even among professional laserists. What it boils down to is what can you get approved and frankly if there were a Wiki for getting stuff approved the process would lose so much of its' charm. =)

I applaud the notion though.

[3ricj]

Yeah I think there would be some trouble with that because MANY people have radically different understandings of what is or is not allowed to be done and how. There is a great deal of confusion even among professional laserists. What it boils down to is what can you get approved and frankly if there were a Wiki for getting stuff approved the process would lose so much of its' charm. =)

I applaud the notion though.

While I agree there are different 'ways' of doing things, the standards of safety are well documented. Well, ok, the IEC and the ANSI standards are very well documented. the US regulations are pretty crappy and outdated, which makes it confusing and complex to calculate. Regardless, things like interlocks, how to calculate MPE, scanfail detectors, etc, etc seem like we might be able to form some level of consensus or atleast document where peoples thoughts differ. Remove the emotions, let's talk about facts and get them down on paper.

[DanG]

Ok - fair enough and I understand that completely - I was more reacting to the notion of having a document which could be edited by many parties many if not most of whom may not, for example fully understand the reciprocity given to the IEC standard, well partial reciprocity, under laser notice 50.

I would suggest that such a document would need to be a guideline subject to interpretation and variation written by a very small number of highly experienced people. And, not for nothing, but most of the folks that I know who would really be qualified to write a summary of the regulatory framework make their living off of explaining it to people, like me.

I'd be happy to chip in if someone would like to pick up the mantle.

[ElektroFreak]

This is a great idea.. I think it would be invaluable even for experts, since not everyone has everything memorized all the time. Having a reference with as much data on this as possible in one place would help everyone.

EDITED This and other posts have been edited or deleted as they detract from the thread topic and/or were offensive to many people.

[Stoney3K]

There are a significant number of "Professionals", however, who will not be willing to help with this since they believe that many aspects of laser show safety are trade secrets and should be kept that way.

I don't believe the words "safety" (especially when referred to in context of innocent onlookers) and "trade secrets" even belong in the same sentence.

That would mean those 'Professionals' are only looking to protect their own commercial interest by offering "safe" shows, and not sharing that information with anyone else. In that respect, they could be considered negligent and jeopardizing audiences in the process.

That would be similar to Volvo developing the 3-point seat belt, and only offering it in their own cars. 'If you want to live, get a Volvo, if you really want to put your life and that of your passengers on the line, well, like, we don't care if you can't afford it, right?'

Or, more close to home in the entertainment business: "We'll give you a show which is completely certified, with all the neccessary rigging calculations, but we're not going to tell the competition how to do it. If you decide to give the job to them because they're $4k cheaper, and the stuff comes crashing down, injuring or even killing a few dozen, it's not OUR problem now, is it?"

[laserist]

I don't believe the words "safety" (especially when referred to in context of innocent onlookers) and "trade secrets" even belong in the same sentence.

That would mean those 'Professionals' are only looking to protect their own commercial interest by offering "safe" shows, and not sharing that information with anyone else. In that respect, they could be considered negligent and jeopardizing audiences in the process.

That would be similar to Volvo developing the 3-point seat belt, and only offering it in their own cars. 'If you want to live, get a Volvo, if you really want to put your life and that of your passengers on the line, well, like, we don't care if you can't afford it, right?'

Or, more close to home in the entertainment business: "We'll give you a show which is completely certified, with all the neccessary rigging calculations, but we're not going to tell the competition how to do it. If you decide to give the job to them because they're $4k cheaper, and the stuff comes crashing down, injuring or even killing a few dozen, it's not OUR problem now, is it?"

It’s not about trade secrets. In *oh so many cases* the question asked displays such abysmal ignorance that you just have to walk away shaking your head…

As for not telling the competition how to do the calculations – what horseshit… First, the “competition” that doesn’t know how to do the calculations almost certainly won’t know to ask. And second, if they do ask – the chance that they’ll actually plug in the right numbers is insignificant. And as for seat belts and rigging – there’s more involved than just copying someone else’s design. You can still screw up the implementation of said seat belts, and said rigging.

In the end analysis, if they haven’t been around long enough to grok laser safety – their show is going to well and truly suck anyway…

Brian

[DanG]

Stoney -

I think that you are operating under the assumption that there is some secret set of information that if made 'public' would allow shows to be done safely. IMO, it does not exist in that form.

There are many, many rules, procedures, guidelines, regulations, semi-equivalent regulations, calculations, measurement conditions, exceptions, alternatives, variations on and on. What allows those elements to be used properly to create a safe show and or manufacture a safe and (in our case) US legal projector is experience. This is one of those cases where a little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing.

It is kind of unreasonable to expect people who have worked and studied and apprenticed for years or even careers to just sit down and pour out a lifetime of experience to people who have not been around the block enough to implement it correctly. I am not speaking of you or anyone else here because I obviously don't know you at all; I am just responding to the comment in general. But there is another larger issue:

Do you realize the liability, at least in the US, that is undertaken where someone of perceived expertise gives instruction though this kind of vehicle? If I tell you how to set beam blocks for example, but forget to tell you that if you invert the projector your blocks will be backwards, that creates a liability for me when a show that I have nothing to do with goes south. It is not that far fetched...

There is ample good in apprenticeship because you learn not just the rules, and when and how to apply them, but the respect for the craft to do so with care and the skills that define the art. I think, and anyone out there please correct me if this is mistaken, that most experienced laserists are happy to help folks who are newer but want you to learn for yourself.

You can start the way I did: I started reading Laser Notice 43 and then kept going up until I couldn't find anymore. Then I read the relevant sections of 21CFR. I bought two or three laser physics books on Amazon and after all of that i knew what questions to ask.

Just a suggestion.

I leave you with this thought: I never fully understood or appreciated all of the safety information I had learned until a 4 watt laser set my sweater on fire while I was wearing it. There is no substitute for experience.

[mixedgas]

Stoney,

I would publish my product report but my sometimes partner says its IP and I can't. I understand why, it only took us more then a year and lotsa time, money, and phone calls to get a clue as to how to get it right..

But I'll make you a deal. Show up at SELEM and it might be setting on a table, but in a room that has no photocopiers.

I can't open myself to liability, as X-Laser says, by publishing it.

But trust me in this, in 1988 there was not the internet per se, I had to go to 2 or 3 ILDA and LFX confs before I even began to have a clue, there is a lot more out there in help today.

Also if everybody submitted the same exact photocopied form to the government, it would not take too long before it got rejected. Much of it is projector, venue, and personal data that is quite individualized for a given owner, club, type of laser etc.

Both my former partner and I are quite willing to answer questions about specific items... If we can...
Just ask here...

Steve

[mccarrot]

You should have 2 versions, 1 for the US and one for in europe.

There is a difference in what you can do and what acceptable between the US and Europe.