Dual red build (pics)

[loopee]

Somebody should do a little historical research.

I actually do know a lot of Pangolins history, I have know of them since the early nineties when I first got into the expensive hobby and bought my first scanners and amps (I posted picture of them some time ago) and yes I couldn’t afford the software at that time.

Pangolins first products were using Amiga computers and utilised the inbuilt sound DACs they then produced a four channel DAC called the Quadmod.

Pangolin didn't come out with the FB3 or the QM2000 out of nothing.

But that’s the point, Pangolin has spent many years developing the hardware and software and part of the cost is recovery of past R&D and future development.

Pangolin is a business, a business that is making professional software and hardware products and provides support for those products.

But you compare your software to Pangolins, but realistically they are both someway apart. Pangolins software is for rapid development of laser art by using click, click, clickity, click. If you getting paid to produce a laser show I think the quickest method wins.

The perception that there is something non-safe about using a sound card DAC to do a laser show is f$&king nonsense.

How can you even make that statement?

First off, you have no idea of the design or manufacturing process of the soundcard, nor do you have any control over the quality of the components that make it.
Secondly, the sound card is being controlled be a windows platform and we all know how stable that is, what happens when it locks up? Also are the drivers for the soundcard windows certified?

Thirdly, the device is a soundcard, yes a soundcard. If you were to do a professional show with it and something went wrong and someone got hurt. Then when injured person then tried to sue you, do you think the manufacture is going to give you any support especially when you discover that the cheap soundcard failed? They are just going to say you are not using the device for its intended purpose (especially since you modified it) then tell you where to go

Do I need to go on?

Using a soundcard is fine for home use but not where the general public can get hurt.

ADAT were used, so where analogue modulators and a host of other things over the years but these days not so much due to the safety concerns, even Pangolin used to modify the ones they sold.

Safety is all about minimising the risk, using quality products to ensure the risk is going to be minimal if it does happen. You can never stop a product failing but you can minimise the damage it going to cause.

And yes safety is the responsibility of the operator, part of that responsibility is using equipment suitable for the job.
So can you control a beam shutter with a sound card like Pangolin can? This way providing twice the safety if for some reason one of the lasers failed and started emitting

It would be interesting to see how your last statement would stand up in a court of law when you’re being sued for blinding someone and part of the evidence was a laser system with a modified soundcard?

Flecon

“i have a pangolin and i love it, but i built my laserboy board and i need to get one of those usb sound cards, becuase the laserboy can do something my pangolin cant, run off of my laptop ”

Yes it can, it’s called LD2000.net

If you already have the QM2000 you can get the network adapter board for it, then you can run you’re projector up to 100 metres away from you laptop
Can you do that with a soundcard

[James Lehman]

Do I need to go on?

No you don't need to go on.

LaserBoy runs on just about all of the modern computer operating systems including Linux, BSD, MacOSX and a variety of commercial UNIcies. The professional sound system architecture of these systems simply blows anything Microsoft ever did off of the planet.

LaserBoy is SOFTWARE.

It doesn't even play the waves it makes !!!

That USB thing just happens to be "Soup Du Jour".

The WHOLE IDEA of LaserBoy is that it writes directly to multi channel WAVE !

That is NOT a hardware specification !!!

If you go out to do a show with crappy, untested hardware, YOU are making a big mistake.

James.

[gf8stiv3]

Safety is all about minimising the risk, using quality products to ensure the risk is going to be minimal if it does happen. You can never stop a product failing but you can minimise the damage it going to cause.

This is why Mercedes Benz angles their hoods in the way they do. Specifically designed that when you hit someone, the vehicle is designed to cause the least amount of damage to that person thanks MB!

Still, "quality products" do fail, I'm sorry but yeah, and they do quite often.

Minimize the damage? Damage is damage no matter what form you put it in...the "it could of been worse" statement does not give you any leeway in any court of law...unless your a celebrity

And yes safety is the responsibility of the operator, part of that responsibility is using equipment suitable for the job.
So can you control a beam shutter with a sound card like Pangolin can? This way providing twice the safety if for some reason one of the lasers failed and started emitting

Should I really get into this? hmm, sure why not! Isn't a beam shutter a mechanical device with an electronic control? Because that just wont never can fail! And honestly here, why couldn't you control a beam shutter with the laserboy software? Just a simple bit of programing into a channel and you've got it! Heck, with my 532 laser I could take my blue channel and use it as a beam shutter channel. 5V shutter opens and laser goes, 0V shutter closes. That's a pretty simple out put command with laser boy...yet again components do fail

[gf8stiv3]

I don't really see it as "LB vs Pango".

I see it more like "LB vs people who don't know anything about LB" !!!

It's a perfectly logical step to go from LB to Pango.

In doing so you will know a lot more than if you had just gone to Pango.

I think THAT was the real spirit of KeeperX's statement.

James.

so what's any of this have to do with a dual red build? I dont know, but I'm bored and up for a debate :-)

I'll agree and say that I interpenetrated keeperx's statement in the same way you did.

I figured the art of a "laserist" was more in the making of pretty patterns and things that make people go Oooohhh Ahhhh (what originally got me into this FYI) Which is cool, and I enjoy doing myself. I took the soundcard dac as more of an electronics/diy project than anything laser related.

Pango *shrug* I have nothing against it, think it's quite awesome...I am opening an orphaniage to pango controllers and software that has been abandoned...hopefully I'll see one on my door step by morning

[James Lehman]

It's after 4am.

LaserBoy still has a big ugly bug!

I'm hittin the kichen and then off to bed.

Ta.

James.

[buffo]

why couldn't you control a beam shutter with the laserboy software?

Because Laserboy is not laser *show* display software. It's laser *frame* creation software. (Plus a lot of other conversion functions and other features; I'm not trying to take anything away from Jame's creation here.) You could control the beam shutter with Spaghetti, of course, but the sound card DAC we've been talking about doesn't have a shutter output. So you'd have to use some other DAC if you want (or need) a shutter.

This is why using a sound card as a DAC for a commercial show here in the US will not be legal - at least not with any of the designs being discussed here on PhotonLexicon. None of them have a shutter signal.

Just a simple bit of programing into a channel and you've got it!

If you're talking about writing your own software, then you can obviously program it to do whatever you want. But we're talking about Laserboy, Spaghetti, and a sound card DAC. And with that combination, you don't have it. (A shutter signal) And it's not so much a limit of the software as a limit of the sound card itself.

Heck, with my 532 laser I could take my blue channel and use it as a beam shutter channel.

No, you can't. The shutter needs to open *before* the show starts playing, and stay open throughout the duration of the show. Laserboy has no way of knowing how long the show is, because you can't choreograph a show in Laserboy.

Spaghetti does output a correct shutter signal, but again, the audio DAC doesn't have a shutter output. So you're right back where you started.

I suppose someone could re-write the sound card driver that Spaghetti uses to talk to the sound card DAC, and bridge the color signal to the shutter signal that way... It might be a stretch, but I can see it working. Are you volunteering to do that?

Now on to what Alec wrote:

wow you really do have the long post down to a science...

Couldn't resist, could you?

I don't think the combination of a sound card DAC + Laserboy and Spaghetti will teach you anything that you wouldn't learn if you started out with any other hardware and software combination (including Pangolin). The learning process is in making frames and shows. The hardware and software are just the tools you use.

Now, if you want to learn about the technology behind these tools, that is another matter. Some people are into that. Others are not. And even if you are into it, you can learn about it without owning a sound card DAC.

i just think its important to be well rounded.

It's nice to be that way, but not everyone is interested in it. And as I said, you can learn about show creation using any of the tools, and you can also learn about the technology behind the tools without owning all of them.

it helped me understand allot of things about the way the system works and how galvos work and voltage regulated modulation and so on and so on.

None of that is unique to a sound card DAC. In fact, I'd say most of that has to do with your interest in electronics, plus some experiments with some test gear, rather than your specific choice of hardware. You can understand how the system works just as well if you're running Mamba Black and the Easylase USB DAC. Or a Pangolin LD-2000 system, for that matter.

I only recently aquired a sound card DAC. Yet I had a very good understanding of how they worked long ago. Indeed, as someone mentioned, the first Amiga-based LD-1000 systems actually used the output of the Amiga's Gary chip for X and Y. (Though they quickly progressed to the QM-8 and QM-16 systems, which were complete hardware solutions on a card that plugged into the zorro bus.) The old X-29 / Full-Auto system is also based on an ISA sound card. So the idea of a sound card DAC is nothing new. The information has been available for people to study (and learn from) for well over a decade.

What *is* new is the recent explosion of experimenters that have worked together to come up with a low cost, open source solution based on the concept of using a sound card as a DAC. Arguably, PhotonLexicon is at least partially responsible for bringing those experimenters together and motivating them.

SO if you want to learn all the cool stuff first, for cheap, get a sound card dac and build a system. then if you like it, buy a pango.. do not step thru the other systems, buy a pango...

What about the people that just want to start creating laser shows? The one's that will never learn how to use an oscilloscope (or even a multimeter) and have no desire to? Do you require them to go through the same process?

I don't really see it as "LB vs Pango".
I see it more like "LB vs people who don't know anything about LB" !!!

I think people have a better idea about what Laserboy is (and is not) as a result of the discussions here. And make no mistake James: Steve Roberts is right... Laserboy is a key piece of the puzzle in opening up the world of laser shows to new hobbyists that would otherwise *never* be able to afford it. (I had to wait a *long* damn time before I could afford what I have now. Imagine what I could have been doing 15 years ago if I had a Pangolin QM-32 back then...) I think we'll see a *lot* of new hobbyists in the next few years. I, for one, am looking forward to it.

Adam

[keeperx]

I don't think the combination of a sound card DAC + Laserboy and Spaghetti will teach you anything that you wouldn't learn if you started out with any other hardware and software combination (including Pangolin). The learning process is in making frames and shows. The hardware and software are just the tools you use.

true but if you get into laserboy you will be forced to learn certain things because james or I will make sure you understand what it is that you are doing..
i also believe that understanding some of the physics of the galvo's and the voltages you are dealing with and how modulation works etc, are all important

What about the people that just want to start creating laser shows? The one's that will never learn how to use an oscilloscope (or even a multimeter) and have no desire to? Do you require them to go through the same process?

Thats why i said IF you want to learn about all the cool stuff first..

I think people have a better idea about what Laserboy is (and is not) as a result of the discussions here. And make no mistake James: Steve Roberts is right... Laserboy is a key piece of the puzzle in opening up the world of laser shows to new hobbyists that would otherwise *never* be able to afford it. (I had to wait a *long* damn time before I could afford what I have now. Imagine what I could have been doing 15 years ago if I had a Pangolin QM-32 back then...) I think we'll see a *lot* of new hobbyists in the next few years. I, for one, am looking forward to it.

Im glad someone besides myself and steve understand that James deserves credit for his work with laserboy, the 6 and 8 channel amp, etc..

if more people would get past the pango/LB discussion (which has no real merit) they could move on and relise that if you are using an ADAC or spaghetti or pango or moncha or WHATEVER, there is always a reason to have laserboy in your set of tools..

[Stuka]

true but if you get into laserboy you will be forced to learn certain things because james or I will make sure you understand what it is that you are doing..
i also believe that understanding some of the physics of the galvo's and the voltages you are dealing with and how modulation works etc, are all important


Thats why i said IF you want to learn about all the cool stuff first..



Im glad someone besides myself and steve understand that James deserves credit for his work with laserboy, the 6 and 8 channel amp, etc..

if more people would get past the pango/LB discussion (which has no real merit) they could move on and relise that if you are using an ADAC or spaghetti or pango or moncha or WHATEVER, there is always a reason to have laserboy in your set of tools..

Dude - are you sure you're not James posting under a different name?

I am SO glad to read that you've become so knowledgeable that you can "force us to learn certain things".
Wow - I've been SO deprived all along!! Please teach me something before all my efforts go to a total waste!!

As several folks have stated now, you don't have to build your own DAC to know how the components inside the projector actually work! Most of us that have built our own projectors are no strangers to soldering irons and electronic circuits, and have learned how galvos, amps, shutters,and modulated lasers do what they do without having to modify a sound card first!

That certainly is NOT knocking those who have done it, but the "knowledge" learned by doing so is that you have learned how to modify a sound card, and use it with LaserBoy to create laser images. Definitely interesting to some, and perhaps the pinnacle of laser graphics generation techniques for others - but it doesn't teach you any exclusive knowledge about laser projectors that the rest of us didn't learn elsewhere!!

As far as "learn about all the cool stuff first" - well, that's a very subjective thing, don't you think? "Cool" to some, may very well be "uh, whatever" to others, no matter WHAT you're talking about or perceiving as "cool"!

As far as credit for James - most of us DO recognize and give James a lot of credit for the work he's done; always have, always will. The fact that most of us don't use the Laserboy / soundcard DAC combination is not a reflection of how we feel about his work - we simply started into the hobby / business in a different path! Additionally, I (and I'm sure many of us) believe that the use of a product,and the posting of favorable comments about the product, actually shows appreciation FOR the product, without having to openly express the "oohs" and "aahs" about the person(s) behind the product. Often in the past, it has appeared that "oohs" and "aahs" were exactly what the creative forces behind Laserboy was looking for, now matter how we actually felt about the Laserboy software.

Also, as cool as the Laserboy solution may be, the simple fact is that many of us who have invested in other solutions probably have precious little time to spend in our hobby as it is. From a personal viewpoint, any time I have to spend with the hobby, I'm going to spend with the equipment and software I already invested in. Once that gets boring, I'll try something different - but I don't anticipate that happening any time soon!

As far as getting past the LB/Pango discussion - you're right; they are VERY different laser graphics solutions, with very different end goals and capabilities:

LaserBoy is a very unique, creative way to create some very cool laser graphics, in a package that is affordable for anyone who already has lasers and scanners. From what I've seen in some recent posts, LaserBoy may very well have the capability to create images that might be very difficult, if not impossible, to create with other software! Very cool!! (Just need to make sure the typical set of scanners can handle them!! )

The Pangolin gear, even the "intro" package, is a professional level product, and NOT cheap - but for most of us that own it, worth every penny! This gear is specifically designed for creating and safely displaying professional level shows - with it, you can create graphics, build complete shows precisely synced to media files, control multiple laser heads simultaneously (onboard or across LAN), specify projection zones across multiple tracks simultaneously, create beam attenution masks, control DMX devices, has built-in fail-safe features, etc., etc., etc., blah, blah, blah.

LB / Pangolin - both COOL products, but for very different needs of different end users!!

[keeperx]

see i see laserboy more as a teaching lab then a boxed solution..

its a matter of perspective..

first you build it, then you tune it, the you tweak it and by the time you have it working you have learned all kinds of shit..

its like a hobby electronics kit but for lasers instead of radios...

[Stuka]

see i see laserboy more as a teaching lab then a boxed solution..

its a matter of perspective..

first you build it, then you tune it, the you tweak it and by the time you have it working you have learned all kinds of shit..

its loke a hobby electronics kit but for lasers instead of radios...

Trust me dude -

Regardless of the controller, an RGB home-built projector built to standards is one big, expensive electronics kit, that requires a LOT of mechanical - and electrical - tweaking!! AND, from what I've seen so far - THAT part never really ends!!

Which is actually kind of cool, provided it isn't 30 seconds before show time...

Also, as far as "learning all kinds of shit" -

You might be getting into the hobby at a fairly young age, perhaps much earlier in life than many of the rest of us on this forum.
However, before making too much judgement on folks that have NOT "learned" by building a soundcard DAC and running it with LaserBoy -

Many of the home-brew projector builders that post here come from VERY technical backgrounds -
electrical engineers, mechanical engineers, propulsion engineers, Navy submarine nuclear specialists, miltary test pilots, laser design specialists, etc. etc.

With those credientials, I'd say we've earned the credit for knowing lots of shit, even thought we might not have modified a soundcard to run our lasers!!