New EU directives making scanning over MPE 'illegal'. Discuss

[Stoney3K]

People (non-specialist laser companies, doing sound/lighting as their main business) are now buying the biggest laser they can afford/lay their hands on, on the basis that they can cover the widest variety of shows with it.

I think the problem is more, that the general opinion (with ignorant laserists and marketers of hardware) is that 'more power is better'.

The fact that you can almost get a multi-watt laser for under $1000 these days is plain stupid, as most DJ's spend more than that on a typical mixer or turntable set. So spending another grand for a 'light effect' to wow everybody at the next wedding sounds like a condsiderable investment and if your neighbour's mobile DJ rig has one of those, you will want to have one as well.

Aside from that, there's of course also the crazy teenagers who want do get their hands on any laser that can burn stuff, from a 100mW DPSS pointer to a Laserscope. Lasers are the new must-have gadget, and there's nobody to inform people that these things can be dangerous. Not only for yourself, but for everybody around and to the industry as a whole.

The variance system as enforced in the US may be the other end of the spectrum -- it means that beginning laserists, who are eager to learn, aren't able to get any gigs because of the enormous investment in qualified equipment and training.

IMO, a regulation that's the best of both worlds is good in my book -- being allowed to do public displays and buy lasers with a power above X mW when you prove you know how to use those things. You take an exam before you get a driver's license, and a car can injure a LOT less people at a time than a multiwatt laser.

[aijii]

you can't kill someone with a multiwatt laser..

[Stoney3K]

you can't kill someone with a multiwatt laser

You'd better reconsider that... something like a Laserscope was designed to be a SURGICAL laser. One that cuts human flesh.

Whether it cuts through its intended target or any other object or person inadvertedly in its path, the results are not going to be pretty.

And seriously, what would you want to be liable for: A car accident, or permanently disabling possibly 1000s of people at a concert because of improper use of a laser setup? My conscience would be seriously scarred, either way.

[White-Light]

you can't kill someone with a multiwatt laser..

You can bet your Gold finger you can:






Mind you I wouldn't mind seeing female bar staff in the protective gear:

[QUAZAR]

Therein lies a problem.

People (non-specialist laser companies, doing sound/lighting as their main business) are now buying the biggest laser they can afford/lay their hands on, on the basis that they can cover the widest variety of shows with it.

When I first started doing lasers professionally, I had a pair of ALC60X's. Both were doing approx 120mW and were operating as a 3 colour system (cyan, green & blue). I used these on a pair of scaffold towers as a mirror imaged pair. The bigest venue we used these in was 1500 capacity and they looked stunning. Mind you, I dont think a pair of 200mW DPSS would look anywhere near as good.

you can't kill someone with a multiwatt laser..

Stand still while I drop this SP168 on your head.

[Stoney3K]

When I first started doing lasers professionally, I had a pair of ALC60X's. Both were doing approx 120mW and were operating as a 3 colour system (cyan, green & blue). I used these on a pair of scaffold towers as a mirror imaged pair. The bigest venue we used these in was 1500 capacity and they looked stunning. Mind you, I dont think a pair of 200mW DPSS would look anywhere near as good.

Call me old-fashioned, but I'm still charmed by the colour tone produced by argon heads. I mean, 532nm is great, but it somehow looks a little too 'clean' and clinical to me. Maybe that's because it's single-line, instead of a multi-line argon, or because of the beam characteristics, I don't know, but I don't really like it that much.

People's jaws will still drop when you fire up a big BLUE laser over their heads. Also because every club on the corner of the street has at least one 532nm strapped to its ceiling.

Stand still while I drop this SP168 on your head.

Hey, WATCH IT! Why would you even consider wasting a marvellous piece of craftsmanship like that for improper use as a blunt object? I mean, those 165's and 168's are just pieces of art.

If you really want to chuck lasers around, at least have the decency to do so with a 2 Watt Laserworld. At least you've got the road case to put something else in afterwards!

[Lasermad]

Thanks James for pointing out this legislation ... incredible the employees are protected yet theres no protection for the audiance ? or is that covered in separate legislation ?

I guess the biggest danger here , is for a while certain venues who read a "little " about the legislation will stay well clear of lasers ... a bit like the venues who said no "smoke machines" when the smoking ban was introduced

In a few years of lasering i have still never once done audiance scanning , simply been no need for it , on the odd occasion when requested I simply quoted a silly figure to so a risk assessment and they backed off ...but one day I will feel confident enough with the math , beams and lenses ...one day !

Also is there a specific PENALTY in place for breaching MPE for employees

PAUL

[QUAZAR]

at least have the decency to do so with a 2 Watt Laserworld. At least you've got the road case to put something else in afterwards!

I could do with a new beer carrier.

[Stoney3K]

Thanks James for pointing out this legislation ... incredible the employees are protected yet theres no protection for the audiance ? or is that covered in separate legislation ?

I guess the biggest danger here , is for a while certain venues who read a "little " about the legislation will stay well clear of lasers ... a bit like the venues who said no "smoke machines" when the smoking ban was introduced

The 'no smoke machines' is more because fog machines would trigger newly installed smoke detectors (the optical kind), which would cause an enormous amount of false alarms for fire departments, and venues pay fines for each false alarm they cause. The irony of it: Because people aren't smoking anymore, we need more fog in venues to make our light shows visible!

Protecting the audience is nearly impossible. Just as much as you can't enforce a sound level for concerts, let alone prevent people from screaming in each other's ear, you can't enforce a specific power density level for laser shows. Morons with pointers will keep spoiling the party.

Governments are starting to be too protectionist and meddlesome. They're making up rules which are intended to protect workers, but at the same time make regular work fairly impossible. Painting on the 1st floor with a manlift because you're not allowed to use ladders anymore? WTF?

[JStewart]

Hi guys,

A bit of an update on this, and a link to the actual Regs that went through UK Parliament early last week.

Later this month important new legislation comes into force in the UK that relates to how lasers and other potentially hazardous light sources are used in the workplace. The new regulations are known as the Control of Artificial Optical Radiation at Work Regulations 2010, and will become active from the 27th April 2010 onwards. They are derived from the EU Artificial Optical Radiation Directive (AORD), which is intended to set a minimum level of health and safety for workers across all EU member states.

The UK’s implementation of the directive can be downloaded from http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2010/pdf...0101140_en.pdf

The legislation is designed to protect workers from both laser light and non-coherent light sources, and as such sets legally binding exposure limits that must not be exceeded. For laser users the new Exposure Limit Values (ELVs) are virtually the same as the traditional Maximum Permissible Exposure (MPE) values. The critical difference however is that as the limits are mandatory levels, and to exceed them is to commit a regulatory offence, which could lead to a Magistrate’s Court fine of up to £20,000.

The other key aspect from the legislation is that it requires a specific risk assessment relating to the use of hazardous light sources is carried out and appropriate control measures are put in place to prevent anyone being exposed to excessive emissions.

What impact does this have on laser show providers? HSE’s HS(G)95 guidance document, “The Radiation Safety of Lasers used for Display Purposes”, is a good starting point to helping you make sure you are able to comply with the new regulations. Now too, is the time to review your current systems of work, and ensure that you have suitable engineering and procedural controls in place to ensure safety and compliance.

Does this make it illegal to audience scan or point laser effects at guests? Not necessarily. What the legislation is saying is that an assessment of the risk any exposure to laser radiation must be carried out and any emissions must be kept below the ELVs.

But members of the audience are not workers, so does it mean that they are exempt from the exposure limits? It is true that the new regulations are designed to protect workers only. However there is a strong chance that workers, such as security, bar staff and stewards, will be present in the display area too. And under general H&S legislation there is specific regulation that states members of the public must not be harmed by any work carried out by a supplier.


These regulations are specific to the UK. At the moment I’m not aware of what the names are for their counterparts in each EU member state, but the intention is that the regulations in each country should be almost the same and offer a minimum standard of safety across Europe, having been derived from AORD.

James Stewart
www.laservisuals.com