How do we class PL members as "trusted members"

[Things]

Needing to go to a LEM or have ILDA membership would be kind of stupid. Not everyone can afford a membership, and not everyone needs one. And in some countries, such as Australia, we've never had a LEM. So I have to fly over to the US to a LEM before I can be trusted? Also, no laser safety courses I have seen have been run in AU, so that will be a problem as well.

As for benefactor status, we have to pay for trust?

Sorry, but having a trusted members group will turn PL into a place like LPF, where the vets run the place and if you talk back to them, they get you banned, sort of thing.

[andy_con]

Just to clear a few things up as to why I made this post.
Ive been thinking about a private section for trusted members for a while. There is so much knowledge on this forum its unbelievable, but some knowledge does go to waste.
Just a few examples that spring to mind, details information on how to convert a scope to show use. People don’t want to post this information due to safety concerns
Multi diode setsups people don’t want to post information on this due to fear of legal action
445 pointers, people don’t want to post information on this for safety reasons.
But if we had a secure area where only trusted members have access, it does not appear on google and companies cant see it we could openly discuss the above topics.
Yes we do need to work through how we manage this area and how we decide whos a trusted member but I personally feel it would be a great addition to the forum.

Your points sure are good to filter members that already are active here but what about new users? Should they first go to a meeting?

Maybe its an idea to have an introduction section where new users could tell something about themselves and show some of his/hers projects. Also if someone works for a company active in the laser industry then they should be considered a trusted member. Of course it will create a lot of extra work for the admin/moderator.

Well wether they have to go to a meet or not is up to the forum to decide.
Just cos they work for a laser company that does not make them a trusted member, my view only

Online user reputation is a significant area of study these days. Andy, the factors you mentioned below are good. Additionally the reputation of people in user's network is an important factor.

It looks like VBulletin might have some stuff built in but I don't know anything about it or how well it suits PL's needs.
http://www.vbulletin.com/docs/html/vboptions_reputation
Mike

Good call might be worth exploring

It sounds to me a bit like an old boys club, and having been here before, can say it only leads to gaping divides in the membership of the forum, creating resentment, arguments, sabotage, etc (ok, so no real change...)

It also places a requirement on 'someone' to manage it ongoing, and deal with the barrage of people PMing and petitioning.
All in all, it'll just control this forum, so people will go elsewhere for it.
Can you tell I'm not in favour...?
Mind you, with all the 'trusted' members in one place, perhaps the regular members will have to read less 'spouting' from the veterans....

Its far from an old boys club. There certain things on the forum that people are not willing to discuss due to potential legal problems and safety issues. By having a secure area these can be openly discusses.
By having a secure area certain topics can be discussed and people can pass their knowledge on.

Isn't it a bit too early for this kind of conversation? Maybe the Admin is working on a solution and is this not needed after all.

I think restricting members on a base of post counts or amount of time they spent here isn't a good idea, because experienced people have to join this forum some day and I'm sure there are a lot of experienced people left to join.
A payment method isn't a good idea. Then you just make a distinction between rich and poor members, not between experienced and unexperienced ones.
Letting people talk about theirselves is probably the best solution, but I don't think our beloved Janitor can handle all the extra work - he is already spending days and nights trying to keep this forum up.

Its all a bit weird really as I mentioned having a secure area to admin yesterday before and 445 issues came to light. Having a secure area wont be just for 445 theres other topic people aren’t willing to talk about on an open forum
Just cos someone has experience does that make themn trusted?

What I was trying to say Andy, is it would be wrong for anybody to put themselves forward.

For instance; How the hell could I consider myself to be respected when I don't have the first idea what other members of this forum think about me.
EDIT: secret ballot is probably the only way

Well I think we need to set certain criteria and then if you feel you meet it you put yourself forward and then its up to admin.mod to say yes you do meet the criteria.

if you read between the lines, there is a wealth of knowledge in my post. The European community have pretty much sacrificed their freedoms and liberty and sovereignty and for that live under constant surveillance under the guise of a free society. I for one don't play that game.

I respect and support admin to allow or censure anything related to PL, it is his property, it is his right and I would defend his rights to him having total control of his property.
However, we have freedom of the press, freedom of religion, and right to bear arms granted to us by our constitution. If a forum can be strong armed or controlled via threats when nothing illegal is being done we have already succumbed to a dictatorship. The interest of public safety dosn't wash with me...if that were the case, ban automobiles.
Information is free and should remain so. If the information dosnt appear on this forum, it will on others. If the internet can become controlled, you might as well get in line at the slaughter house because you are nothing and only the people who have power, will have power.
"trusted member"??? I have seen trusted members shoot dangerous levels of laser radiation into a crowded dance floor. Im all for control...as long as I am the controller.
Do you want to live on a Prison Planet? http://www.prisonplanet.com/new-bill-gives-obama-kill-switch-to-shut-down-the-internet.html
Homie don't play dat shit.

Everyone seems to only have 445 in mind. What about scope information, pointer information arctos multi diode information. These topics will never be openly discusses on this forum due to safety concerns and legal issues. Having a secure area would mean these topics can be openly discusses where the information cannot get into the wrong hands.
A secure area would need to be managed to make sure that the topic being posted needs to go in the secure area. General 445 stuff can go on the open public forum but detailed information about how to convert a scope to a working projector need to stay in the secure area.

Personally, post count means nothing. zero, zip, zilch, Nothing. I know people on forums with very high post counts and an inverse relationship to intelligence.

I agree with being on the board for a time. I really agree on having met people in person either at a LEM or otherwise. I think it would help alot. I realize that some people can't make it to LEM's.
EDIT: Hit post before done typing...... Any forum I have been on and/or admin'd. "Trusted members", in every case i've seen, creates a split in the membership that in 50% of those cases - lead to the demise of the forum.

Fully agree a high post count is meaningless.
Demise of the forum – only very touchy subjects would be in the secure area everything else would be on the open forum as normal.

There's no good option here when it comes to limited access. No matter what perfectly good, trustworthy people will be excluded. I think that the decision should be made by one individual: Admin.

Admin is keen on the idea as the forum will become a better place as more topics will be talked about in the secure area.

There you go, casting aspertions again....

How about this....
we set up an alternative forum entirely, just for 'the colour which must not be spoken' (what film does that remind me of...?)
Could even have links in our signatures so people could find easily... we could call it 'FloatonMexican' or something (nothing against the Mexicans btw, it just rhymes...)
Then its not the Janitors problem.
(btw - this is also a bad idea, been here, done this too.....)

Again this thread I started isn’t to do with 445. I spoke to admin before any 445 issues came to light.

I couldn't agree more, its a shame there is no way to view raw usage, I have spoken with many form members via the phone emails and such, been a forum lurker since 2006 and I have barely 50 posts. I am more of a reader and less of a talker due to anxiety and have learned its better to listen to people who are gods of knowledge compared to me, rather than spout out what I think. So for my hundreds of hours of reading and countless spent dollars building and trying everything out for my own, make me less of a forum member than someone who babbles relentlessly and drives up "posts". Its something that should not be taken lightly, and I believe this forum will make just and accurate decisions that are for the good of our community. Just kinda wanted to add my two cents. Plus it gave me an extra score point should we go that direction.

But how do we know you spend hours reading the forum? Just cos you have “kit” does that make you a trusted member?
General questions please don’t be offended

I disagree with the concept of 'trusted members'.. it would probably just lead to a rift. Plus, if someone wants to infiltrate, they can and will. A user agreement/liability disclaimer for forum membership might be more appropriate

But if we don’t have a secure area then certain topics will never be discussed and other members will never learn.

The whole reputation game is a hard problem online, but we are hardly the first forum to have encountered these issues.

Take a wonder over to the "blue room" theatre technical forum (http://www.blue-room.org.uk/) where by the nature of the things discussed there can be similar safety headaches.
Now visit without logging in (or explicitly log out) and you see a list of forums that do NOT include one dealing with electrical and power issues (A Major event can be a Megawatt load easily), log in with an account and the Electrical and power forum appears.
There might be something to be said for having a "Class 4" forum with similar logic, possibly requiring that people make a certain small (5, 10 something like that) number of posts elsewhere before it appears.
Anyone with a genuine interest in laser shows will notch up five or ten posts within a week or so, as there is plenty of meat elsewhere around here, those just trying to learn how to build light sabres will I would guess not find much of interest in the other forums and will probably never post.
I would note that the blue room electrical and power forum will get you HEAVILY schooled if you post something that is wrong, or even is only sort of right, they are not prone to let dangerous misinformation slide, but because of this the place is extremely useful and in fact probably has some of the most in depth discussion of some of the odd issues in event power that you will find anywhere. This only works at all as it has developed a serious safety culture over the years.
I would stay away from playing automated reputation games as they seldom work well, and doing the ask the moderator thing adds a huge amount of overhead and hurt feelings, just hide a class 4 forum from non members and those with only a very few posts, not perfect but it just may be good enough.
Just my thoughts on the subject.
Regards, Dan.

I disagree sorry. Just cos someone signs up that does not make them a trusted member and they should not have access a secure area.

^^ This

Having myself come a cropper in the BR rigging section I can only agree.
As well as registration, and small number of posts, couldn't we also get Admin to add a few innoccuous looking questions to the registration form such as 'What is your main area of interest?
Pointers
Balloon Popping
Blinding Innocent Folk and Animals
As Above Plus Children
Real Proper Sensible Laser Show Stuff
This could then be used to ensure anybody answering anything but the last option doesn't get to see the 'good' stuff. And if we all kept quiet about it, nobody would ever know.....

Like this idea

This is difficult as I am new to PL but have a general understanding of laser components and have worked with Gene and Rick on here personally and over the phone to answer any safety questions I have that I don't want to post on the forum. Because I am new to PL I wouldn't be eligible for such "trusted member" even though I have a variance, do laser projector shows and have lots of room to continue absorbing all the great knowledge senior members have on here.

My intentions for joining PL was to learn from senior members and taking this form of communication away form the "new" folk will only help lead to gaps of knowledge between Senior enthusiast to junior enthusiast.
I also think that if anyone has a variance and a approved laser to run a show they have taken the steps to prove their wallets are empty and are in for the long haul.

But there is already a gap in knowledge! People don’t talk about certain tops already due to legal issues and safety concerns.
So does opening kit and having a variance make you a trusted member then? Just a general question?

Guys I really don't want to go down the secret society route. I've been up against those guys and I don't like it. I prefer a more civilized approach, and I do not want to go this way either: http://laserguild.com/home.htm

The closed forum requires nomination and a few phone calls to some one, ie we talk to you and prescreen you. We then need to see some small amount of artwork or hardware.
Set this up so your joining a professional society, like the Canadian Teachers Union. Canada's Manitoba Teachers union is model. They recruit future teachers, act as the ethics board,set the standards, and mentor beginning teachers. They usually end up working with the school district, instead of butting heads.
And like the local model airplane society, we want to see your ability to fly , respect others, and make sure your not sharing the same radio channel with another flyer.
Or the kennel club, you don't just get to walk into the ring, even if you own a purebred,you have to show some token knowledge and work your way up.
But I sure as hell do not want to be a member of some cliquey, snobby, guild either.
I sense a need for phone calls and paperwork, and some way of verification of whom you claim to be.
Something like that where some discipline is required.
And I don't want to lock out the non professionals.
I don't know what to do about the "appliance operators".
Sadly, the situation possibly forces this upon us.
*****len is good reason why this is needed, and recently he has shown serious signs of reform, like starting to meet the terms set forth by others.
I'd like to hear what the 'lectronic freedom frontier/foundation folks have to say on this.
Also I do like the idea of the "magical" electrical and rigging sections.
One thing I DO NOT like is the idea of having to read 3-4 more sections, just "advanced technical discussion" and "lasers" can take me 20 minutes in the morning and evening. Not to mention the lounge.
Besides, I don't trust Grandmaster Pat with the dielectric mirror trowel. He might cut himself.
Go look at PPRUNE< The Professional Pilots Rumor Network, they have really nice operational discipline, posts get killed or edited by mods, but never blocked in advance. They also have it easy, as a pilots license, military situation, or airline employment is easy to check up on. They also have a not so private section for the non-professionals and the public to ask questions. You can read the pro section, but only post in the newbie section, airplane spotter section, or technical questions section if your not a professional.
Its somewhat fair, and the pros do scan and post in the non-pro areas. Looks like the same software as here.

Steve

Ok fair enough

I think if you have a variance that should count for a Trusted member.....

Why?
So someone has a variance for a 100mw green, so they can now be trusted to mod a laser scope and use that?
This person has 10 posts and never met anyone off the forum but have a variance so they are trusted to information that could put someone in hot water.

[andy_con]

I posted this in another thread, but it fits here as well:

Now, while I agree that the risk is real and significant, and that these lasers used in a portable setup are pointless and highly dangerous, the biggest casualty of this will be that any blanket action taken by any of the people involved in this will very likely adversely affect our (many hobbyists and some pros) ability to use these diodes as well.. The part that makes me feel all weird inside is that this is all speculation at this point. Any actions that have been taken and will be taken are based solely on speculation. I never like to hear about people freaking out, taking action and causing a ruckus all over mere speculation.. even if the danger is real. I'm speaking about the people who freaked out and went off and told every authority they could about this in the interest of blocking public access based on their speculation about the potential danger. I'm not talking about Casio's lawyers. It's better, IMO, to wait until a real problem presents itself in cases like this before freaking out and demanding action. Statistically, when talking about dangerous handheld devices (or dangerous devices in general) the people who use them irresponsibly are a small minority. In US law, this small minority is almost never enough to justify blanket action. This is no different.
So you're saying only ILDA members should have access? We already have a professional society. I just don't feel that it's up to anyone here to make these kinds of decisions for everyone except perhaps admin. It was the "policing the world whether it wants/needs it or nt" actions of members here on PL that I believe are the reason Casio is now threatening legal action.
Also, it's SPECULATION that you're saying forces these changes on us. There are 0 cases of injury of ANY kind from these diodes to date. Speculation forces nothing, and blanket action based on speculation is not good IMO.
I really don't like ANY idea that can and will create an "old boy's club" so to speak. I've been under the impression that I've seen such things in action here in the past.. perhaps wrongly.. and I voiced my feelings on it then as well. ALL of the ideas you speak of Steve will have that result, like it or not.

The secure section would be more than just 445 stuff

[aijii]

Hey wasn't there a certain bloke who won on ILDA award years back that I guess most would say couldn't be trusted ?

I think the whole idea is doomed to fail guys. Look at what happened with ILDA when they tried to bring in the different rank/level system. A lot of people - people with merit - got pissed off.

Professional membership means shit all when you can just sign up for the fucking thing and pay your fees.

Paying fees doesn't equal honourable, trusted, ethical member of society. It just means you have money.

Spec/andy - i don't think this is the right way to proceed. It WILL divide the already somewhat "divided" forum. Especially when some forum members are commercially involved in the industry, you would potentially be putting in place a mechanism that can be abused for ill had financial gain by some should the opportunity arise.

Trying to come up with some formal system of determining whether somebody is "trusted" is silly - when trust is a subjective/emotional thing - they are either trusted or not. If anything - if this is a path you really want to take - I'd make it as simple as possible. Start with a core group of individuals that are well known within this community and let them vouch for the others. Again though be very careful...

[andy_con]

Hey wasn't there a certain bloke who won on ILDA award years back that I guess most would say couldn't be trusted ?

I think the whole idea is doomed to fail guys. Look at what happened with ILDA when they tried to bring in the different rank/level system. A lot of people - people with merit - got pissed off.

Professional membership means shit all when you can just sign up for the fucking thing and pay your fees.

Paying fees doesn't equal honourable, trusted, ethical member of society. It just means you have money.

Spec/andy - i don't think this is the right way to proceed. It WILL divide the already somewhat "divided" forum. Especially when some forum members are commercially involved in the industry, you would potentially be putting in place a mechanism that can be abused for ill had financial gain by some should the opportunity arise.

Trying to come up with some formal system of determining whether somebody is "trusted" is silly - when trust is a subjective/emotional thing - they are either trusted or not. If anything - if this is a path you really want to take - I'd make it as simple as possible. Start with a core group of individuals that are well known within this community and let them vouch for the others. Again though be very careful...

i would like to create a secure area where anything no matter what the subject can be talked about. it seems the only way to do this is a secure area.

[ElektroFreak]

It's not the existence of a secure area that I'm questioning. It's the criteria for entry..

In my opinion the best idea that's been put forward in terms of criteria for any sort of secure section is Jon's idea a few posts back about a probationary period for new members. IMO. It has the least collateral damage and allows us all as a community to get to know the people in question.

[aijii]

Demise of the forum – only very touchy subjects would be in the secure area everything else would be on the open forum as normal.

Look at it from the perspective of the person not having access to the trusted area. how do you know what is and isn't going on in the VIP room ? If i was to not have access to the orgy going on behind closed doors, I'd be very hard pressed to "get it up" with any enthusiasm with the peasants outside...

Hell, why not just ban anyone that isn't trusted and make this a closed forum ?

[aijii]

i would like to create a secure area where anything no matter what the subject can be talked about. it seems the only way to do this is a secure area.

If certain people are going to hold back information or sabotage topics (like laserscopes) that could cost people who've invested a small fortune lots of money, then I think the secure area will fix that.

But I agree - who are you to determine who enters or not ? aside of the fact that its Specs forum - and he holds the keys to all the doors (and no disrespect meant here) - what gives anybody the right to decide if i'm trustworthy enough to get access to that information ?

what if you're wrong ? then you've actually MADE A DECISION to let me in, then i go take that information and make a super gazzilion watt ghetto blaster sized pulsed laser and start pointing it at cars on freeways...

i mean - trusted - okay - you don't know me - i'm sitting on the other side of the world from you. even if you've met me at a LEM - you don't know that i'm not psycho. I may just present well.

etc etc...

by deciding about whether to give me access to information - does that make you as responsible for my actions as I if i choose to do something unethical with it ?

[andy_con]

Look at it from the perspective of the person not having access to the trusted area. how do you know what is and isn't going on in the VIP room ? If i was to not have access to the orgy going on behind closed doors, I'd be very hard pressed to "get it up" with any enthusiasm with the peasants outside...

Hell, why not just ban anyone that isn't trusted and make this a closed forum ?

your going a bit OTT here mate.

the forum would operate as normal. i suspect the private area will not be flooded with posts as theres not many private ones out there. but a few posts will be created in the private section containing senative information.

if someone makes a post in the private section before going live it will need to be approved by the mod. if its found not to be private it wont get posted there.

so generally speaking people wont notice any difference in the forum

[aijii]

It's not the existence of a secure area that I'm questioning. It's the criteria for entry..

In my opinion the best idea that's been put forward in terms of criteria for any sort of secure section is Jon's idea a few posts back about a probationary period for new members. IMO. It has the least collateral damage and allows us all as a community to get to know the people in question.

Its the best idea put forward but we still need to be very careful here.. no knee jerk reactions.