Frankfurt Pro Light & Sound : Pangolin big announcement?

[Pangolin]

Hi folks,

Just a few quick notes. Yes, Pangolin doesn't make projectors. They were loaned to us by Kvant, HB and RGB.

We had six Kvant projectors doing audience scanning. All had the special lenses mounted to them, which allows safer and brighter audience scanning than would be possible otherwise. I made some videos -- not only promotional videos, but videos in which we were discussing the effect with professional veteran laserists. We'll be publishing these as time permits (I just returned tonight).

This is the final culmination of work that I conceived perhaps nine years ago, and did crude tests for an Orlando theme park in January of 2005. If you poke around, you'll find official proof of such .

I've finally found someone willing to take time to explore the possibilities of this idea and make prototype optics, and after a year of exploration and refinement (amazing how long it takes to perfect something that is fundamentally simple), we finally have something that works really well. We'll likely be selling these in the sub-$100 range soon.

Bill

[drlava]

We'll likely be selling these in the sub-$100 range soon.

Very nice. Is that in single unit quantities? I volunteer for a group buy as soon as they are available.
For those of us planning projector layout, what is the lens diameter and mounting distance from the galvos?

[norty303]

Actually, although Beyond was the 'big' announcement, I think these lenses may well be the item that has the biggest impact on the most laserists worldwide.

These and the new drivers are of particular appeal, and I look forward to more info.

With regard to info, when can we expect a bit more about Beyond, Bill? I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to know where it fits in the product line, if it's going to be an 'all-in-one' solution to the various bits of software we currently use, a good live performance tool, show creation, what the upgrade path is for existing users, etc.

[mccarrot]

Actually, although Beyond was the 'big' announcement, I think these lenses may well be the item that has the biggest impact on the most laserists worldwide.

Lenses to increase divergence are not new, I have been providing lenses to people during the last LEM's, and I have used them also during some events.

Increasing divergence is normally against anything a laserist wants, we normally want only the best divergence, and lenses will be useless in big events.
But in small venues using lenses to increase divergence is the best option to go if you want to do audience scanning.

The main difference between the lenses I have been using and Bill now introduces is my lenses do not gradually increase divergence and do not have a clear upper part. So bill lenses are better.

[Pangolin]

Great questions and great points guys. My comments are below.

Very nice. Is that in single unit quantities?

Yes, this is the single-piece price, although we might offer a "kit" price which would have a reduced per-lens price. For example, for a touring company, they may need to use different lenses, based on their distance to the audience and amount of laser power being used. So it might be nice to buy a whole "kit" with perhaps four different lenses or so, and that way they can be ready for anything. It makes sense that the "kit" price would be less than the price of four single lenses added together.

For those of us planning projector layout, what is the lens diameter and mounting distance from the galvos?

Distance to the scanners does not matter a whole lot, although I suspect -- just by the nature of where scanners typically are located with respect to the normal exit aperture in a projector, that the lens would wind up being within a half inch or so from the scanners.

As for diameter, we're still working that out. What I have right now is a bunch of experimental lenses generated over the past year, whose diameters vary.

I think the biggest challenge will be coming up with a universal mount. At Prolight, we used six Kvant projectors for the audience scanning portion of the show. Those projectors very conveniently have two thumbscrews on the front, which would make mounting and even fine adjustment very convenient. But I've not seen this on other projectors. Within my mind, I have conceived of a lens mount for Kvant that would provide three separate degrees of freedom and be very easy to make and use. Perhaps the Kvant thumbscrew spacing will become a standard as a result...

Actually, although Beyond was the 'big' announcement.

Yes BEYOND was the "big annoucement". We did not announce these lenses at all. And, there were some people on the Pangolin team that even doubted that they would work! That's why we didn't say anything about them. We just put them on, quietly asked laserists to watch the show, and then asked what they think after they saw the show.

My belief is that many laserists would have a tendency to not believe what we are doing would be possible, or have an assumption that there would be undesirable artifacts. (Plus, it seems some laserists hate anything done in the name of safety...) So we first let people watch the show, and then discussed what was different, and how we accomplished it.

I think these lenses may well be the item that has the biggest impact on the most laserists worldwide.

Hehe, well, you might be right Norty! It could be that your own view and aspirations for this product are even greater than mine.

I do think that this is an important invention and that it has great utility. I also think that, when used with PASS it provides a very effective and also very safe way of presenting audience scanning laser shows to the world.

But is this more important, and having a greater impact than, lets say, Lasershow Converter MAX? I'm not sure about that ...

With regard to info, when can we expect a bit more about Beyond, Bill? I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to know where it fits in the product line, if it's going to be an 'all-in-one' solution to the various bits of software we currently use, a good live performance tool, show creation, what the upgrade path is for existing users, etc.

Hehe. Well, you could possibly get on the BEYOND launch team. That way you would get sneak peaks of the software and its features over the next 98 days or so...

And yes, this is an all-in-one product much like QuickShow, as opposed to the LD2000 series, which is a suite of separate programs. BEYOND will eventially replace LD2000, and BEYOND will have multiple levels (kind of like Intro, Basic and Pro). We're still working out the upgrade path for existing users, but if you buy LD2000 between now and July 16th, you'll receive BEYOND for free, so it's like getting two things for the price of one.

Bill

[norty303]

But I've not seen this on other projectors. Within my mind, I have conceived of a lens mount for Kvant that would provide three separate degrees of freedom and be very easy to make and use. Perhaps the Kvant thumbscrew spacing will become a standard as a result...

I think something like that would work. I asked about permanently fixed aperture masking a little while back and was referred to the Kvant design, so I don't think it would be too difficult for people to add (or you to produce!) some sort of retrofitted fixings.

Hehe, well, you might be right Norty! It could be that your own view and aspirations for this product are even greater than mine.

I do think that this is an important invention and that it has great utility. I also think that, when used with PASS it provides a very effective and also very safe way of presenting audience scanning laser shows to the world.

Well, I kind of look at it this way... we all know that probably the biggest dangers are from the 'uneducated/ignorant' users in smaller venues, who don't come under scrutiny from H&S, so if you can afix something to a projector that makes unscanned emissions within MPE, then you effectively remove the need for a scanfail (which doesn't exist in SO many projectors) and add a ceetain amount of 'idiot proofing' to a design. So, yes, in my opinion, to the right marketplace, this could be significant. Certainly, on the 'numbers' front, there are far more of these shows going on weekly, than the big stadium shows performed by the experienced laserists.

And yes, this is an all-in-one product much like QuickShow, as opposed to the LD2000 series, which is a suite of separate programs. BEYOND will eventially replace LD2000, and BEYOND will have multiple levels (kind of like Intro, Basic and Pro). We're still working out the upgrade path for existing users, but if you buy LD2000 between now and July 16th, you'll receive BEYOND for free, so it's like getting two things for the price of one.

Ok, so from this, do I take it that Beyond will be hardware platform specific, or is the intention for it to span all your DAC platforms?

Certainly in my head, I'd imagined QS being an entry level app that would work on all your platforms, with Beyond the pro level (all singing all dancing) app that replaces your current suite.

Or will QS and LivePro represent the 2 tiers of software on FB3, with Beyond being exclusively QM based?

I guess what I'm really asking for is a software roadmap for each of your hardware platforms

Hehe. Well, you could possibly get on the BEYOND launch team. That way you would get sneak peaks of the software and its features over the next 98 days or so...

Tell me more (obviously if this is a QM release, then its less relevant to me...)

[cyberb0b]

[flecom]

if you buy LD2000 between now and July 16th, you'll receive BEYOND for free

so it will be a paid upgrade... any idea on the pricing structure?

is it going to be different (pricing) for the QM and FB3 interfaces?

I am glad to see that those lenses are finally coming to fruition... I agree with norty, those lenses could definitely have a huge impact on how regulatory suits see audience scanning...

[White-Light]

I agree with norty, those lenses could definitely have a huge impact on how regulatory suits see audience scanning...

They're going to have a great impact on safety and will certainly help, however, I'm unsure if the US suits will realy change the regulations in light of these.

After all, they increase safety by shifting the safe power limit upwards in any given situation due to the divergence, but from the US's point of view, they don't prevent unsafe scanning because if you put enough power through a lens, divergence or not, you'll eventually exceed MPE. All these do is shift that point upwards.

I would suggest PASS is still the answer in the US and I'm suprised that the US hasn't granted an automatic variance for PASS equiped systems as that guarantees safe scanning provided its set up properly as it interupts any scan that exceeds the preset MPE. Maybe the way forwards for the US is Lens + PASS.

In the rest of the world, the lenses certainly sound very interesting as a way of allowing increased power and thus brightness without compromising safety. The only question is as to beam quality. Having re-viewed the video above, I can now see the difference in beam diameter top to bottom. Theres a slight increase in fuzziness but not that much. I think the main difference between the Kvant and Pangolin shows was the colour gradients in actual fact. The Pangolin show standing in motion uses a lot of soft gradients that gives a diffused look whilst the Kvant show used a lot more discrete colouration and hot beams which gave a sharper appearance.

[masterpj]

heh bob that's strange.. I found the same thing on my pc