Laserworld

[300EVIL]

Hey, did you get my milk duds? And WTF, I didn't want diet coke.

[allthatwhichis]

Hey, did you get my milk duds? And WTF, I didn't want diet coke.

<eating milk duds>. You can't drink beer while watching this show... This is important and you need to be sober...

[flecom]

lol, anyone want to register laserworldsucks.com?

[mophead]

I wonder how many folks will buy this crap thinking it is legal (while LaserWorld puts the monkey on the customers back)? I mean, come on.... buy a projector and suddenly you become a manufacturer??? Legal as soon as you submit.........right. /sarcasm off

They are misleading people.

[matratzki]

I also do not like Laserworld.. I lost 1400Euros, to buy a ptojector which I can only drop in the garbage bag!!! And safety is a word they do not know!!

[flecom]

I really think we should make a list/database of people that have been screwed by laserworld in one way or another...

I do not understand how ILDA stands by and does not say anything (in essence their silence is kind of an approval) after seeing stuff like that "Easy 1.2.3. FDA approved!" crap

I really think ILDA needs to step up and do something because laserworld makes ALL laser manufacturers look bad... but they wont and I know why

[dsli_jon]

lol, anyone want to register laserworldsucks.com?

Good one Pal, but to 'be fair', it would have to be more 'all-encompassing', ie: "ratemylaserworldbox.com" (and just about .everything-else) is wiiide-open... (...watch, they'll all 'magically be taken' by tomorrow...) No, I say, let's 'let the good in with the bad', that-way, it portrays a truly unbiased / uncensored 'picture' of the *real world* body of LW's customer-satisfaction and/or issues, etc... Can't call 'libel' on that, ers...

'Sup, Dood...

I mean, come on.... buy a projector and suddenly you become a manufacturer???

Weeeel, I (think I) understand what you're saying, as-if "manufacturer", in this context, implys that the 'buyer' is some-how converted into a 'qualified-expert', simply by-virtue of their purchase, and yes, in that-sense, that would be a 'lotta malarkey' (I think that's like turkey mixed with moo-moo caca...)

But, in-fact, the FDA-considers any purchaser (...and, logically, they assume a soon-to-be commercial user...) of a show-system requiring a Variance, a "manufacturer", as-in, 'a manufacturer...of a laser show'... (See THIS PDF, Page 19, for-why they 'think' this way...) And, in the relatively-recent 'Laser Notice 51' - which is all-kinds-of-relevant to the LW-situ, here - they re-state: (red, added; [my comments, bracketed]...)

Dealers and distributors of laser light show projectors must have approved laser light show variances to purchase equipment from projector manufacturers. [In this case, LW...] This requirement ensures that awareness of laser light show radiation safety and protection practices and regulatory requirements are transferred from one variance holder to the next.

Additionally, we assume that dealers and distributors may need to demonstrate the capabilities of the laser light show projectors to customers during the course of sale. In doing so, dealers and distributors are manufacturing a laser light show, which requires a laser light show variance.

Therefore, any dealer or distributor of laser light show projectors must submit the required reports and apply for a variance to purchase and sell laser light show projectors. Laser light show projectors shall not be purchased until that variance application is approved and the purchasing party provides the projector manufacturer the purchaser’s variance number and its effective date.

Sounds 'reasonable' / logical, yes? But the *problem* comes-in when the FDA takes a friggin year (...or more!) to approve such-submissions. So, many people / Co's have taken-to just 'doing what you gotta do', some even having-gotten this 'off the record advice' from certain people at the CDRH... But nowhere - in-print / 'officially' - will you find this 'approved' (afaik) and the official-officers handling Variance approvals, will tell you, emphatically, 'NO'...(See this post...)

But, yes, as you excellently highlighted, 'what about that 'grey area', that LW is directly leading-people into:

Legal as soon as you submit.........right.

What they say on that page *directly contradicts* what the FDA says:

Laser light show projectors shall not be purchased until that variance application is approved and the purchasing party provides the projector manufacturer the purchaser’s variance number and its effective date.

...my 0.02 is: well, it would be 'one thing' if, once a purchaser submitted their Var-app, and GOT their acknowlegement-letter / Accession Number (...NOT an 'Approval' yet, remember....) - but that was planning to use an ALREADY-CERTIFIED product, that the FDA acknowledges is APPROVED / CERTIFIED (ie: Mobolazer ML-10, etc, etc) - AND - *more importantly*, is SAFE (ie: doesn't spit out spurious x-Watt beams when turned on/off / connected to / unplugged-from DMX, etc, etc) - that'd be 'one thing', imo....

...But, essentially, what LW does, is say '...No need to vorry about wezer or not our produkts are aktually certified or not, my frriend! ...Just give us ze kredit kard, and ve vill send zu ze box, and you vill be happy und shiney und lazering avay before ze day iz ovuh...Don't vorry about doz pesky FDA-rrumorz!...Zer iz alvayz zum zilly rrumors, yah?!...'

.....OH, sorry, I don't know what happened to my spelling, there...

Seriously, it's like not just selling guns w/ no FFL, but selling unsafe / illegal MAC-10s, or whatever, as-well... Well, ok, I know that's a 'hyperbolic-example', laser boxes can't kill people, but it makes ze point, yah?

And safety is a word they do not know!!

Right out of the home-country, excellent! You should tell more about why you feel this way / what 'happened'...

BTW - I sincerely hope my 'akccent'-jokes don't offend... not meant to... I actually love and respect the German people / German engineering... just not one-kompany en partikular...

Anyone out there have the 'time' to make a simple opinion-repository sitelet? Laserworldreviews.com? Whyiloveorhatelaserworld.com? Ratemywienerschnitzelbox.com?

Discuss...
j

[mophead]

Weeeel, I (think I) understand what you're saying, as-if "manufacturer", in this context, implys that the 'buyer' is some-how converted into a 'qualified-expert', simply by-virtue of their purchase, and yes, in that-sense, that would be a 'lotta malarkey'

But, in-fact, the FDA-considers any purchaser (...and, logically, they assume a soon-to-be commercial user...) of a show-system requiring a Variance, a "manufacturer", as-in, 'a manufacturer...of a laser show'...

I get what you are saying Jon. But what I gather from the LaserWorld flowchart is that a person has to submit *not just* a show app., but a complete "I built this box and I am responsible as a manufacturer" product app.

The way it is worded and shown on the flowchart, at least to me, says "It's not legal in the US, You are the manufacturer, you file not only a show variance but also a full product report.

That is the only way I can see they can safely cover their asses. Their customers will have no clue as to what to do. All they see is mail a piece of paper and fire it up. What entry level user would know to check for a shutter (for instance) and properly document it to the CDRH along with their operating manual?

[dsli_jon]

Hey Chief...

I get what you are saying Jon. But what I gather from the LaserWorld flowchart is that a person has to submit *not just* a show app., but a complete "I built this box and I am responsible as a manufacturer" product app.

Well, if that is, indeed the 'game' they are hinting-at, that'd be even more malevolent!! You shouldn't be *having* to file a product-report for a sold / imported projector, unless, a) you *know* it is not certified, and you want to be the 'certifier / importer-of-record', so you can 'capitalize' on that (you, then, able to sell that line in the US, as now-certified..), or, b) you intend to make some of your *own* model-changes / mods (ie: add lumia / machita position, etc) certify, then sell as your 'own'... LW is *supposed* to ONLY be selling already-Certified boxes, with a Product Variance (not only-accession) and Approval Date. In fact, they're supposed to have a label with all that info, right on the box, before it ever-ships... Where is that info on your boxes, LW??

The way it is worded and shown on the flowchart, at least to me, says "It's not legal in the US, You are the manufacturer, you file not only a show variance but also a full product report.

Wow, I hadn't even thought that 'evilly' (word?? into-it, but I suppose you could be right...but, even-so, they'd still be giving the FDA the bird in so-doing, cause they aren't supposed to ship, until, when? "...until that variance application is approved and the purchasing party provides the projector manufacturer the purchaser’s variance number and its effective date."
The whole 'we can ship / you can play, cause the 'State can't interfere with your business' is just their snake-oil marketing...

BTW - just to make sure I'm not being 'misunderstood' - none of my CAPITAL LETTERS or underlines, etc were directed at You / Your comments...
...just so'z you know, I know who the 'bad guy' is, here... 'tain't ya'll...

j

[mixedgas]

QUOTE:
I do not understand how ILDA stands by and does not say anything (in essence their silence is kind of an approval) after seeing stuff like that "Easy 1.2.3. FDA approved!" crap
END QUOTE


The three or four volunteers that run ILDA are too busy trying to deal with CDRH and FAA plus their day jobs. I'm glad you have volunteered to become Chairman or a member of the Ethics committee. The ethics committees hands are tied, they cannot do anything unless they receive a formal complaint about a ILDA member. They are about resolving things for the good of the industry, not enforcement. Who has filed the complaint?

You need to read the ILDA articles of incorporation, and see what the rules are. ILDA has a charter, and it cannot just go do what it wants.

ILDA is NOT the NRA of Lasers. They do the best they can, with very limited resources.

You get out of ILDA what YOU put into it! Have you emailed the executive director about your concerns? Asked him what you can do to help?

ILDA did pretty well with a big issue lately. Problem is if they crow about success, and means and methods, the BAD GUYS(tm) get a idea about how ILDA did it.

PS, Have you filed a complaint with the government? If a consumer does not complain about bad or unsafe products, they do not know about them. Its FDA remember? They are complaint driven, back to their beginning in the 1920s with hot dogs with human fingers in them and other issues.

No complaining = The perception that nothing is wrong, by the regulators.

Steve