LOBO gun, has Brad ordered one :)

[JStewart]

After posting my comments yesterday, I contacted Patrick to make him aware of the thread.

We have since exchanged correspondence on this topic.

James

[Simon]

James,
Has your keyboard broken ? lol

[astatic]

I just got an e-mail from Patrick and yes James like you said he told about you.
When i'm at home i'm going to study on it, but as far as i've read the story is totaly different as some thoughts may go.
Anyone who wants to know what happened and what the Ilda and Lobo did could contact Patrick Murphy in person if he wants and he will explain the situation and will respond to all of your questions.
It's clear for me as far as i read it, the Ilda did what they should did.
If anyone wants to talk to Patrick Murphey, just send me a pm and i'll give you his number.

[Simon]

What is the problem with ILDA making a public statement ???

To me, it seems like they are trying to keep this hush hush if they expect to converse with everyone by private message/email.

I am beginning to lose respect for them....

[astatic]

I've read the complete e-mail and Patrick Murphey has no problems when i post his responce.
So for all who wants to know, here's his responce.

I really appreciate your note, and the opportunity to respond. Actually, I spent much of yesterday corresponding with James Stewart and with ILDA's Safety Committee Chair Greg Makhov, working on this issue.

As stated below, if people have questions, the best way to find out the answers is to call me directly at 407-797-7654. I don't visit PL on a regular basis, sorry. Also, these topics can be complex so IMHO it is easier, faster and more efficient to have a one-on-one to find out a person's exact concern and then to have a quick back-and-forth discussion to provide the desired information.

Regarding the LOBO incident, both LOBO and ILDA have been open about this. The morning immediately after the incident, there was a long analysis/discussion/post mortem done in front of the entire ILDA Conference. James Stewart, PHE regulator Michael Higlett, and myself led the session at which LOBO's representative was questioned at great length by the three of us plus questions from the ILDA Members in attendance. This was not any type of private or closed session, so anyone such as James is free to report on this. ILDA did not further report on this because we felt it had been sufficiently discussed in public with our Members -- the people it happened to -- it was a one-time occurrence, LOBO had immediately accepted public responsibility, and they took steps to prevent a repeat.

Your email earlier this morning is the first time anyone has contacted ILDA asking for information. (I do not consider a post on PL as a direct request since I do not monitor PL. To me, if you want to know something, you ask the person yourself directly by email or phone.) As you can see, I am spending my Saturday morning responding at length to your request.

Let me now go into a few more details about the LOBO incident. I will first note that everyone at LOBO was mortified when this happened. They immediately realized the safety implications of their errors. They knew they had done wrong, they discussed it openly with the Conference attendees, and they took steps to fix this for the future.

The specific errors were: 1) Scanning too low into an audience area, 2) Not e-stopping the projector just before the too-low scan and 3) Allowing the projector to continue after the too low scan.

On point 1, LOBO had previously tested the equipment and of course during rehearsal the night before, all beams were safely above audience levels. My understanding is the following: LOBO put the projector on a concrete pad on the lawn outside its building. The projector was slightly larger than the pad so one of the four feet was put on a sheet of plywood. The system was tested the night before and all beams were safely high enough. Due to rain during the day, the plywood-supported foot sank just low enough that the projector tilt was not noticeable but of course a laser beam is a long lever. It turned out that the lowest scan of the performance swept across LOBO's balcony. People on the balcony realized the beam was coming towards them and fortunately they took actions such as ducking, turning away, and/or closing their eyes in order to avoid the beam. My understanding is that no one had direct ocular exposure. (I am not aware of anyone having eye tests after attending ILDA, although of course they don't have to tell me. Perhaps they told James or perhaps James was one of the persons who had a test.)

On point 2, LOBO personnel should have recognized that the beam was sweeping low and should have e-stopped that projector before it happened. This is the greatest lapse of the incident since ILDA requires of all Members that they continuously monitor a show and that they immediately take corrective action or shutter the beam to prevent a potentially hazardous exposure. (See point 5 on this page: http://www.laserist.org/safety-basics.htm) LOBO did say their show-monitoring person was distracted by a security issue, but of course this is not a valid reason (LOBO agrees) -- the person monitoring the show must keep their attention on the show.

On point 3, LOBO said that the reason they did not stop the projector was that the too-low scan was the lowest scan of the pre-programmed show, so they knew that all subsequent programming put the beam safely up in the air. However, they also recognized that this alone was not sufficient for the appearance of safety (which can be as important as actual safety) and that the projector should have been e-stopped as additional assurance to the audience that the show was safe.

As a direct result of this incident, LOBO immediately took steps to improve their e-stop procedures and hardware placement. They required the show monitors to focus attention 100% on the show, and to immediately turn off the beam in case of a potential hazard. In addition, they added a physical stop to their projector so it cannot go lower than a pre-set height.

I do want to mention that LOBO's demonstration was NOT audience scanning as the term is commonly used (e.g., to mean beam effects deliberately intended to go into the audience). There was no intent to have any human access to the laser light.

In addition to the above, I want to stress that ILDA is taking safety, and especially deliberate audience scanning, very seriously. We investigated the Justin Timberlake performance on Saturday Night Live in December, and determined that by various means, some of which were proprietary, this was a safe and legal show. We are currently looking into two other situations with claimed unsafe audience scanning; these investigations are still in progress.

ILDA is developing new safety devices and implementing new safety procedures for the 2014 Conference. We have a lot of challenges in interfacing different projectors and a wide variety of software controllers, in two days, by a volunteer crew. We will be improving both real and perceived safety.

Finally, there are discussions within ILDA regarding how to better stress safety, and especially audience scanning safety, to our Members and non-Members. Clearly, there are some shows by both groups that either appear unsafe or are unsafe (as a whole or in part, say, due to an accident). We need to help the public and regulators feel confident that laserists know what they are doing. This has understandably taken a blow.

Again, if anyone has any questions about the LOBO situation, the ILDA Conference or any other issue, the best and most direct way to get answers is to pick up the phone and call my cell at 407-797-7654. If phone charges are a problem, email me with your phone number and best time to reach you and I will call you. If you feel like the forum also needs to know about the discussion, you can write down a summary and post it.

I know everyone nowadays is IM'ing and tweeting and on forums ... but this is a complex issue. I want to be able to address your specific concerns and to have a dialog. That's a much faster way of getting to the heart of an issue. I have seen personally how forum discussions can devolve into misunderstandings or religious wars, and I want to avoid this by IRL chat, like the old days when people actually talked directly to each other.

Thank you for writing and the opportunity to respond to these concerns.

-- Patrick Murphy, ILDA Executive Director
407-797-7654 cell anytime. (If I am tied up I will call you back.)
mail@laserist.org

PS: Feel free to post this to the forum. I only ask that the entire contents be posted. Thanks!

[Galvonaut]

Thanks for posting that astatic.

Interesting reading.

Keith

[ildadirect]

To PL forum people:

This morning, I got the first direct inquiry ever, from someone wanting to know about the LOBO issue. I replied to them within 3-4 hours. I will post my message to them so you have some background. After that, my respectful request is that anyone with further questions call me on my cell, anytime, at 407-797-7654.

This is because when there is a complex issue, I personally prefer to communicate one-on-one with individuals, especially by voice. It makes it much faster to zero in on the issues they are concerned about. It is much easier to ensure that each person understands the other. Usually one conversation is enough to solve the issue or answer the question.

The conversation is not hush-hush or secret. If the individual wants to communicate the results to others, he or she is free to do so.

I understand that many of you are more used to forums, or you prefer typing to conversation, or whatever. If I wanted information from you, then I would do it your way and post to the forum or PM you.

Since you are wanting information from me, I respectfully ask that you contact me by my preferred method: call me at 407-797-7654. If charges are a problem, I will call you back on my line. Or, email me at mail@laserist.org with your concern, your real name and your phone number; I will call you back at the time you indicate.

-- Patrick Murphy

[ildadirect]

Ah, just as I was typing my message, Bart was posting my reply. (This is the kind of asynchronous communication that drives me nuts <g>.) So my message to him contains information about issues brought up here. If you have further questions, my phone is right next to me. Thanks!

[Galvonaut]

Thanks Patrick - always better from the horses mouth than via the rumour mill.

We do like a bit of drama here

Keith

[Stiffler]

Hi Patrick,

Thank you for your detailed explanation, but I think it raises more questions than it answers (for me, at least). I find it extremely hard to believe that a bunch of "professionals" would build a device of this size & power without some sort of self leveling built in (or at least a 'tilt' switch), or that they didn't realize that rain soaked ground (aka MUD) might cause the laser to shift. Further more, being 'distracted' is NO EXCUSE!!!!! This is a 100 WATT laser, PAY ATTENTION!! And I don't care how sure the operator was that the laser would not scan that low again, he already done screwed up, HIT THE E-STOP!!

I get it, people fuck up, but it's going to be really hard for me to take any ILDA recommendations seriously when your own shows aren't safe; If you are leading by example, you just failed.

Lastly, I would rather be intentionally scanned by an illegal laser show where the operator is a least attempting to be safe, than be accidentally scanned by a 100 watt laser operated by 'professionals'.

Eric