Phenix Technology is trying to tell me DTs are not as good as PT.

[VibrationsOfDoom]

...Sounds to me like I need to show up at SELEM with my Goldenstar projector and about $300... Surely someone there will have SOME set of 40k scanners to sell lol...
Gotta move up from 20k's....

[Pangolin]

In another thread, Bill Benner commented (surprisingly to me) that he wasn't familar with the scanners from PT.

Sorry for the mixup. For sure we are familiar with PT scanners since by now a good dozen separate companies have sent us their scanners and amps to modify. We have documentation on them, and how to modify their amps on our ScannerMAX web site.

What I am NOT familiar with is PT40, or this PT-A40. Moreover, I'm not sure PT-A was made to compete with us (as is Edison's theses). It would have been virtually impossible for a company to spin a product in a month specifically to compete with another company. From the looks of things, PT-A has a differently-shaped body and different position sensor. In any event, I am not familiar with anything other than PT20 in terms of things that have been sent to me.

Setting that aside, what I can say is that one big difference in scanner quality is the tolerance of the machining. On critical parts, our tolerance is 0.0002 inches (yes, three zeros before the 2) which is around 1/20th the thickness of a sheet of paper! I can say the same about Cambridge, which is why Phil Barrows used to say that nobody would be able to compete with them because nobody could ever meet their tolerances. I've seen this kind of tolerance from the Chinese companies making some industrial scanners, but not laser light show gear.

In looking at the scanners and driver design (which looks suspiciously like the design of boards made 20 years ago bearing my own name) both PT and DT look very similar to me. At this point, with few exceptions, everybody is copying everybody else and I would bet that none of the Chinese companies mentioned even know where or from whom these designs originated...

In the meantime, what about the Saturn system? We haven't seen any progress with this model in a long time.

Hehe. Eric, I will send you what will serve as the theory portion of a book I am writing. I sent it to our PR guy to cleanup some of the wording, and make it more understandable for common readers. Originally I mis-labeled it as a "white paper". In the end, he called our work a true re-invention of the galvanometer-based optical scanner! In the case of the Saturn series, substantially every part of the scanner had been redesigned before their release. Now you're wanting further improvements?

I will admit that I've seen incremental improvements from EMS all along. No question. My criticism would be where those improvements start from and end up. Nevertheless, Tom is always making improvements.

...Sounds to me like I need to show up at SELEM with my Goldenstar projector and about $300... Surely someone there will have SOME set of 40k scanners to sell lol...
Gotta move up from 20k's....

Definitely bring your system and I'll take a look at it. It may be possible to use our scanners with your existing amp. So far there haven't been any amps that wouldn't work...



Bill

[planters]

Bill,
Although I worded the post carefully, I still may have failed to be clear. I said we have not seen any progress with this model for a long time and that is true. I did not mean to suggest that there has not BEEN any progress just that there haven't been any updates or progress reports. This is not a criticism and please do not take it as such. With the frequent and open discussions of the improvements with the 506 such as the effect of the change with the windings, I assumed that as interesting developments with the Saturns occurred that we might learn about them here as well. But, this IS a thread about the 506 and so not really where I would expect updates on another model to be posted.

Your PR guy called your work a true re-invention of the galvanometer-based optical scanner? Your PR guy? Nevertheless, I will enjoy looking at the papers. Thanks!

Regarding the EMS, I'm not suggesting that they have released any new and improved design, but they have not provided any updates for a long time. If this comparison with these other scanners will be made at SELEM it would be very interesting if any other available models could be evaluated there as well.

[SaltyRobot]

Its going to be really exciting if we can have a side by side shoot off with these different scanners.

I love my PT-40s but I have not been able to get the funds together to make my next purchase which will be the 506s.

[VibrationsOfDoom]

..It's a decision I will have to look at as well... I didn't buy a super expensive projector from Goldenstar, though it's a bit far from the cheapest models they had at the time... So I don't know if going for one of the super expensive scanner sets would be worthwhile, though I do know the scanners aren't something I want to skimp on... I am aware the power supply will have to be swapped out, as these projectors aren't set up as they are to run anything higher than 30k scanners... Still, I noticed most of the entry and mid level priced lasers Goldenstar sells aren't equipped to add 40k as an option (more than likely due to the power requirements they come standard with). That being said, since I can't think of anything else in the machine (other than the power supply) I would possibly need to replace and/or re-install, I think buying the best set of 40k scanners is a smart idea, especially since I am primarily doing graphics, and on my homemade creations I DEFINITELY plan on upping the point counts for detail and clarity...

[Pangolin]

Although I worded the post carefully, I still may have failed to be clear.

Typical email syndrome problem. Certainly I've been on the "sending" side of this many times. Thanks for the clarification. Of course I am sure that I am overly sensitive to what I might read as "unfair" criticisms, but I hope that I take fair criticisms well. And I will fully admit, anywhere, at any time, that some of our products are worthy of criticism. No question. And even my own performance is worthy of criticism too. (Probably a bit of undiagnosed ADD in there somewhere...) Nevertheless I appreciate the sentiment you are conveying here.

I said we have not seen any progress with this model for a long time and that is true. I did not mean to suggest that there has not BEEN any progress just that there haven't been any updates or progress reports.

Yes that's fair. Certainly YOU haven't seen any, but even in our private communications, I don't think you've asked either. Our recent interactions have mostly been related to mirrors, so comments about not seeing progress on the scanners caught me off-guard.

This is not a criticism and please do not take it as such. With the frequent and open discussions of the improvements with the 506 such as the effect of the change with the windings, I assumed that as interesting developments with the Saturns occurred that we might learn about them here as well. But, this IS a thread about the 506 and so not really where I would expect updates on another model to be posted.

Hehe. Actually THIS isn't a thread about the 506. I think (hope) there was a mention of the 506 before I jumped in. But with the exception of a thread started by one other guy, complaining about our lack of 5mm mirrors (which we clearly have but he didn't know about), most of the discussion here on PL has been about the '506.

Moreover, while we have started delivering Saturn scanners, those deliveries have been restricted to high-volume dealers and installations of high notability. Because of this, we haven't really promoted Saturns here. People can place an order now, but they'd be waiting in line for a while before they receive them, whereas people have to wait only a short time for '506. And finally, Justin and I were talking just the other day about our observation that the '506 will really satisfy 90% or more of clients. It does beams, it does graphics, it works with small mirrors, large mirrors, and it's cheap, easy to build. So...

Your PR guy called your work a true re-invention of the galvanometer-based optical scanner? Your PR guy?

Hehe. Sounds funny on the face of it, unless you know the guy. He's a real straight shooter, and also serves as a writing consultant. I hired him to help edit what started as a "white paper" and will wind up being many chapters in a book. So sure, our PR guy (who's also a writing consultant) gave us a complement, which might be easily dismissed (like your mother telling you that you're pretty). I'll let you be the judge of what we've done after reading it...

Regarding the EMS, I'm not suggesting that they have released any new and improved design, but they have not provided any updates for a long time. If this comparison with these other scanners will be made at SELEM it would be very interesting if any other available models could be evaluated there as well.

We'll be bringing some '506 for sale (not very many, but a few sets), but the question is one of servo drivers. Will someone be bringing 506 that we delivered to them? I will be bringing my own little projector with Saturn 1s and our DSP driver.

Bill

[TechJunkie]

Do we really have to talk about 506s on ALL scanner threads. The topic was PT vs DT.

Seriously, some of you sound like a freakin' ad counsel. WTF?

[planters]

Tech,
You make a good point. Sorry. I think the reason that the discussions gravitate toward the 506 is not only because a lot of people are starting to use them, but also because these are evolving in so many ways that the progress is interesting. I think if these were more complete, ready to go systems without any outsourcing then they would be less talked about.

The DTs and the PTs are pretty close. Close enough that if you can obtain the PT for about 1/2 the price of a DT then this is a simple decision.

[masterpj]

Do we really have to talk about 506s on ALL scanner threads. The topic was PT vs DT.

Seriously, some of you sound like a freakin' ad counsel. WTF?

To be honest there was a lot of mentions about value for money versus performance in the thread and its best to take all scanners in the equation.
The scannermax 506 are just very interesting both performance wise and financially and I'm not surprised it's a very frequently to be mentioned thing when it comes down to scanners.

re-invention of the smartphone is a similar thing apples PR used when introducing the iphone to present it to the consumer.. It's just PR talk meaning a major change in how something would handle and to be frank seeing they did change feedback, coil winding, positioning, size, change of shaft thickness and material, etc and the no need for a lot of heat dissipation you could say that change is pretty major.

On top of that we shouldn't forget bill has a good grasp on scanners and the information he provides is legit.
I can't wait personally for scannermax 506 to get their own scanner amp as this is for a lot of people likely a set back as of right now.

[TechJunkie]

To be honest there was a lot of mentions about value.......ect

I'm not debating any of that. I just dont want to read it in every thread that talks about scanners.

Its bordering on spam.