To the laser show software companies

[sonaluma]

Hi Bill,

I will say that we have some brand new concepts which use a VERY DIFFERENT format and data concept, when compared with what people have been doing up until now.

Could this be support for direct import of existing open vector formats such as 2D SVG and 3D X3D? With such quality drawing tools available for free (e.g. Inkscape 2D and Blender 3D), it makes no sense to reinvent the wheel with restrictive LASER-specific drawing tools or to require expensive "converter" add-ons for specific packages any more. We are developing show software without any drawing tools at all!

And this is the second reason we are not very interested in "universal" formats -- because we don't want to dumb-down our new technology, to the lowest common denominator, and to the point where it would be compatible with what everyone else is doing.

Proprietary formats will always be necessary for users who are creating and modifying shows using proprietary software. Of course converting from Pangolin->ILDA->Pangolin formats will lose any Pangolin-specific show features. However this does not alleviate the need for an open interchange format! The existing ILDA format already meets this need, this is really just a proposal for a revision, because the format is very outdated.

Kind regards,

sonaluma

[Pangolin]

Hi Gary and Sona,

I can certainly understand concern on the part of consumers, and the allure of an easy conclusion that "open" must certainly be better for consumers than "closed". I personally disagree that "open" is necessarily better for consumers, but it would be difficult for me to articulate all of my reasons or justifications in a simple forum posting.

However, aside from a concern that "open" is better for consumers than "closed", nobody has overcome my point about DRM, and the related point that companies producing the highest quality laser shows would certainly not want to distribute their material in an "open" format, any more than Warner Brothers will want to distribute their latest movie releases on the internet in an "open" format with no DRM.

As for "open" formats in general, our software certainly supports them. So it's not like we are trying to reign people into using only Pangolin software (as, oh-by-the-way, many other software companies have in the past, and still do today). In fact, don't forget, we were the very first company with a documented and published SDK (published in 1989 -- long before anyone else did). I often wonder if we hadn't released our SDK, if there would be "open hardware" today...

And let me reitterate my point that the ILDA format, right now, can be used as a show distribution mechanism. In fact, ILDA allows for the submission of ILDA awards using ILDA-format frame files, along with music. Our software generates such files right now, and has for the past 10 years...

On a selfish note, I do have one question for you Gary. You wrote:

So, although I think your attitude is perfect in regards to running your business, I don't think it is ideal for the laser community as a whole.

My question is, exactly where do you think the laser community as a whole would be without our involvement up until now? Do you think it would be more open, or more closed?
(Hint: we were the very first company to implement the ILDA format in our software -- implemented even before the two original authors of the format to begin with, not to mention our work with other companies to improve products unrelated to our own, and publishing technical articles, including Motorola App Notes that our competitors use when building their hardware, etc. etc. and so on...)

I don't think you are going to find a more open company, or one that has been more generous to this industry than Pangolin. In fact, I challenge everyone to look at other vendors in this industry and ask what they have done FOR THE INDUSTRY (and not just for themselves).

So, just because I don't think a universal format will magically increase the number of shows, players, or people watching laser shows, doesn't mean that Pangolin doesn't have a commitment to being open. I simply disagree that a "universal format" is a magic bullet.

Best regards,

William Benner

[carmangary]

First of all I just want to state that what I am suggesting is simply a common format that every laser show package can import or export to. It doesn't have to be the package's native format. It doesn't even have to be simple. It could even contain encryption so that it can only be played back by the intended recipient. There is nothing to prevent a common format from containing DRM if that is desired. Although WMA is not supported by all media players, it is certainly supported on players created by more than one company, and it does contain DRM. But like I said, there is nothing I have proposed that would prohibit you from continuing to support your legacy stuff if that's the mechanism you want to use for preventing piracy.

A person on this board was complaining to me in a conversation we had that they were annoyed that their LaFreak software couldn't either import or export their shows to ILDA (I can't remember which case it was - and I can't even confirm it is true). But regardless, the situation certainly does exist for other company's software. I can't export Moncha shows to ILDA. I can't export shows in my self made software to ILDA. Part of my reason, at least, is that it isn't worth my time fooling around with it because even if I did it wouldn't encapsulate frame rates or music and all of the other goodies that a good show format would include. It's also inefficient. (Why store the same repeated frame in a huge ILDA stream? Just store it once with a map to it, right?)

In answer to your question about Pangolin, I acknowledge that you have done and are doing a tremendous amount for the community. You have been very open and helpful to me when I asked some questions about the ILDA file and your participation on the forum and at the laser meetings speaks volumes. But, what about all of the little companies out there? Should they just pack it in and leave all of the business to you? I'm sure you would like that! But, we all know that isn't going to happen and in the spirit of competitive innovation there isn't a member of the laser community who could want that. So, what do they do? Continue to create their own show formats so that my friends and I can't play each other's shows? Should they all be content with using the ILDA format even though it isn't suitable for their needs? Or should they come up with a new and improved way of sharing information so our German friends can buy software with a German GUI created by a German company while our French friends use French software? The answer seems obvious to me. And historically speaking, this question has been answered time and time and time again and the same answer always comes: an industry standard format.

Certainly, a common format is not going to open the flood gates for free shows. But, I'd be willing to bet that between the users on this forum that we would certainly have a good time giving it a go. I'd certainly like to be sharing my shows with you all. That would certainly be a step in the right direction if you ask me.

[sonaluma]

Hi Bill,

nobody has overcome my point about DRM

The ILDA format was never intended for the distribution of copyrighted shows. Customers who require to lock their shows to particular playback devices can continue to do so using various means including Pangolin's secure show format, which has become a de facto industry standard.

A format for distribution of public domain shows and interchange (e.g. playback of Pangolin-created shows on non-Pangolin hardware and vice-versa) is a different requirement. Though it could use an update, the ILDA format meets this need. DRM support is irrelevant for this application.

Kind regards,

sonaluma

[Pangolin]

Hi Gary,

But, what about all of the little companies out there? Should they just pack it in and leave all of the business to you? I'm sure you would like that!

Well, if you study our history, you would find that we have done more for "all of the little companies out there" than anyone else -- including "all of the little companies" themselves... We are historically open with information -- not only the information I share here, and work that I do privately to help "little companies" like Jian Chen with his DT-40 scanners, but also my past contributions to the Laser FX web site, along with the over 750 HTML web pages on our own site, many of which are informational in nature and have nothing to do with our product.

When we started in this business, there were only big companies with trade secrets. Thanks, in large part to our efforts and openness with the information, "all of the little companies" now have a chance to flourish. I guess a large part of me wants to say -- exactly how do you think "all of the little companies" got to be in business in the first place? So of course we don't want them to just "pack it in and leave all of the business to us".

Regarding LA-FREAK, I will have to look into this. It could be that there was a bug in the FB3 version of LA-Studio (which, oh-by-the-way we give away for free) which prevents the ILDA export from working correctly. We will have to look into that.

"Industry standard format" blah blah blah. You want an industry standard format, but we already have one -- the ILDA format. It isn't perfect, but at least it will work for this purpose if you only include a little bit of extra information in a text file. But if you aren't willing to put effort into ILDA for your own projects so that at least the other softwares that support ILDA can playback your shows, what is it that makes you think that other software companies (by your own assertion -- some of whom don't even support the ILDA format right now) would support a "new industry standard format" which would no doubt be harder to implement, and at the same time be even more counter-productive to their own interests? I am not talking about us here -- we've already proven our openness, time and time again. But what about the other companies?

Best regards,

William Benner

PS: I got a chuckle over one thing you wrote.

so our German friends can buy software with a German GUI created by a German company while our French friends use French software?

Most of "our German friends" UI are in English, not German. We find this fact amusing at Pangolin, because, although we are a US-based company, our LD2000 software is available in English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Chinese and, of course... German. As far as I know, our software is the only laser software even available in French...

[carmangary]

Fine.

I'll create my own and not share my shows with anyone.

Happy?

[carmangary]

"Regarding LA-FREAK, I will have to look into this. It could be that there was a bug in the FB3 version of LA-Studio (which, oh-by-the-way we give away for free) which prevents the ILDA export from working correctly. We will have to look into that."

Where can I get a copy of the LA-Studio software that you give away for free?

[Zoof]

What we really need is converters! I wrote my own svg to ilda with proper point placement. When I started that project there was not a whole lot of response to join in. But I have it now. Next I need a 3D to ilda converter, .3ds, .vrml or other. Anyone?

What we *really*really*really* need is "laserGl" a laser equivalent of openGl. Make that a substitute so you can use regular openGl commands but instead of it being rendered on your computer screen it is rendered in vector format, converted to points and forwarded to your favorite DAC.
Then we could program using regular openGl commands and all the tools available for it (screen gaphers, design tools) and happily beam 3D.

[Pangolin]

Fine.

I'll create my own and not share my shows with anyone.

Happy?

Ummm. Not really... You can create your own AND share them with everyone... using the ILDA format. It's really no problem if you want to put forth the effort making an exporter...

Where can I get a copy of the LA-Studio software that you give away for free?

Just contact me and I will send you a download link.

Best regards,

William Benner

[andy_con]

here's a question - why dont pangolin sell cd/dvd's with shows and animations on??

there are lots of sites that sell shows/frame but they are silly money

http://www.laseraction.ru/english.html#l

surly pangolin could sell cd's filled with stuff for like £50 and not loose any money at all??