Perceived brightness 12watt vs 3 watt

[m0f]

In comparing 3W's to 10W's, there is a somewhat noticeable difference in brightness in a small dark venue with good fog / haze, but nowhere near 3x, maybe 1.5. Bring them into an arena venue with big lighting, led wall, etc and the difference is much more noticeable. Outdoors, it's night and day, huge difference between the two. In the end I think it just comes down to the right tool for the job.

A lot has to do with specs though, a 12W heavy on blue and 650nm with big beam and poor divergence won't be much brighter than a properly balanced 3W with very nice specs.

I've recently upgraded my 10W's to 20W, but haven't yet had them out for a show so can't comment on the differences in a big venue, in a small room there's a point where bright is bright and brighter can't really be perceived in the beams, however can say there quite a nice difference in liquid sky effects and larger scanned effects, and also testing static beams in a 40ft room with wood walls is no longer a good idea The beam size and divergence of the new CNI greens is also much lower than my previous DHOM's. Overall I think it will be a nice improvement for arena and outdoor shows.

The 10W's worked well enough imo in those situations, however at least with edm shows many riders are now specifically asking for 20W or greater, though most are happy with the results once they see them, many are skeptical about accepting 10W's on paper. I think a lot of this has to do with wavelengths, beam size and divergence and the fact some manufacturers misrepresent their power levels. My 10W's were a 1:1:1 ratio of 638nm, 532nm and more recently 462nm, and people are often blown away by how bright they are for the power level. Sadly due to the variability of lasers out there, artists and ld's are asking for more power than would otherwise be necessary if specs were more consistent.

[edison]

The problem is we get now is that evenmanagers now seem to determine/demand what power is needed for a certain price. But when an accident happens en someone is blinded the laserist is held resposible for it. So its just a matter of time and some schoolguy that is hired for a crate of beer blinds someone with his 12W ebay purchased projector. When autorities come in and look at the size of the venue compared to the power is being used the laserist get the blame for it. At the end of the day the laserist is resonsible for what power is used. Its time for a permit and a safetytrainings degree that is 1000 usd if you ask me. That way the less serious schoolguys will not be able to do lasershows since they can,t afford the permit. The "real" companies that are taking things more serously can afford it as they can charge a reasonable price for their shows since there is less competition in the low end market. People that have done safetyytraining are more aware of how dangerous it is to use high power in small rooms and with that gained knowledge they also can better explain it to the eventguys.No one wishes someone to loosses his eyesight. In most small venues 3 watt is more then enough even with a less good beamquallity but the eventguys now are making the rules. Time for some permits

[swamidog]

there is safety training in the US. it's called the Laser Safety Officer course. it is rather expensive ~600$ USD and it does cover things like using the minimal amount of power necessary.

some states in the US require it. some states require it and more, but most don't.

the rules and regulations in the US are not consistently applied or followed. this is unfortunate and to the detriment of all.

The problem is we get now is that evenmanagers now seem to determine/demand what power is needed for a certain price. But when an accident happens en someone is blinded the laserist is held resposible for it. So its just a matter of time and some schoolguy that is hired for a crate of beer blinds someone with his 12W ebay purchased projector. When autorities come in and look at the size of the venue compared to the power is being used the laserist get the blame for it. At the end of the day the laserist is resonsible for what power is used. Its time for a permit and a safetytrainings degree that is 1000 usd if you ask me. That way the less serious schoolguys will not be able to do lasershows since they can,t afford the permit. The "real" companies that are taking things more serously can afford it as they can charge a reasonable price for their shows since there is less competition in the low end market. People that have done safetyytraining are more aware of how dangerous it is to use high power in small rooms and with that gained knowledge they also can better explain it to the eventguys.No one wishes someone to loosses his eyesight. In most small venues 3 watt is more then enough even with a less good beamquallity but the eventguys now are making the rules. Time for some permits

[edison]

Cool, we should have it here. There will be of course always people that are doing things illigally even they should have a permit but everything helps. It would be good i think if there is some kind of limit in power that you can purchase without a permit. But that won,t work i think since people can order thing online. However without some kind of permit you could get some regulations in what people can hire. I can now hire a 20W RGB to anyone and that is strange since its a dangerous thing in the wrong hands. When i was working as an electricien in the past, i needed a safetypass. Without it i couldn,t even enter the building site. With a permit we can do some things to make things a bit more save for the audience and we get less competition in the low end market so prices might go up again. Everyone complains about that the boy next door can do more power and does things for even less money. Some people here in the netherlands don,t even pay tax......


But back to the subject, lower divergence gives allot more "punch" and you get way better graphics. Overal its the way to go. Its better to stack 6 red single modes then go with 2 multimodes if you ask me. It depends on wich budget you have of course but once someone does lasershows he should be able to afford good quallity equipment. I think you also need to convince the eventguys and they are slow learners

[m0f]

As a policy I never rent my lasers out without a technician to handle at the very least the setup, and in most cases the operation of the show. Strictly for safety and insurance purposes. There are very few companies in North America who will dry hire a laser, and even then only to other (varianced if in US) laser show companies.

One other aspect about north american shows is that aside from a very few audience scanning approved shows, the vast majority are strictly overhead beam shows. So the higher power levels are in some cases useful and if following strict safety procedures in setup such as physical beam block, proper height and separation from audience / stage performers, etc, it's not necessarily more inherently dangerous.

But as you say in the wrong hands they can be. Luckily lasers in the 10+ watt range are still quite pricey and for that reason still out of reach and typically only available to the serious laser show operator.

However I am seeing more and more lasers in the 3-5W range in night clubs and particularly a problem in after hours clubs, whereas a few years ago it was typically 1W max. This is where the danger is in my opinion as often they are installed by people not familiar with lasers, ran on dmx or auto, scanning the audience, etc.

[edison]

As a policy I never rent my lasers out without a technician to handle at the very least the setup, and in most cases the operation of the show. Strictly for safety and insurance purposes. There are very few companies in North America who will dry hire a laser, and even then only to other (varianced if in US) laser show companies.

Good to see your doing things the right way, but unfurtunally not everyone thinks the same way

One other aspect about north american shows is that aside from a very few audience scanning approved shows, the vast majority are strictly overhead beam shows. So the higher power levels are in some cases useful.

Yes but even without audiance scanning there should be some limit. Personally i don,t like it when its too bright. There are a number of ways to make it look good without needing allot of power but with a dickhead of a LJ that is not willing to lower the amount of other lights the onlyb ways is more power. Its like tresspassing an asshole on a freeway that goes pedal to the metal when you want to pass him. To be able to pass him you need to even go over the speedlimit.

Luckily lasers in the 10+ watt range are still quite pricey and for that reason still out of reach and typically only available to the serious laser show operator.

I agree that level is still pricey but 2015 will be the 10 watt year since prices continue to drop and the guys "that do things only for a hobby" are already building 9 watts with 4 p73,s a double blue and a 3 watt green. This group is relatively small but it will grow fast since china offers more power for less money.

However I am seeing more and more lasers in the 3-5W range in night clubs and particularly a problem in after hours clubs, whereas a few years ago it was typically 1W max. This is where the danger is in my opinion as often they are installed by people not familiar with lasers, ran on dmx or auto, scanning the audience, etc.

Yep same here, "the guys that only do things for a hobby" can afford higher power because chinese suppliers like eightonlight, goldenstar, and OPT are offering more power for a lower price just to keep selling. This will continue and we just need injuries first untill we get permits in the netherlands.

[m0f]

Personally i don,t like it when its too bright. There are a number of ways to make it look good without needing allot of power but with a dickhead of a LJ that is not willing to lower the amount of other lights the onlyb ways is more power. Its like tresspassing an asshole on a freeway that goes pedal to the metal when you want to pass him. To be able to pass him you need to even go over the speedlimit.

At 10W I still get a good effect even with big lighting, massive amounts of wash and sharpy's, but it's the led walls that really kill it, every big show now seems to have ever increasing sized led walls. Often ran at 100%, practically daylight inside many of the venues. Easily doubles the amount of power needed for a nice effect. A lot could be done with timing dark periods but I find can't be relied upon when working with different vj's all of the time. With those I work with a lot who know the needs of lasers, always yields nicer shows.

[luxilid]

LED walls should be banned! So many Vjs just blast high key content (lots of white background) and it just washes everything out.
Just lasers, lights, and music please!

[flecom]

The problem is we get now is that evenmanagers now seem to determine/demand what power is needed for a certain price. But when an accident happens en someone is blinded the laserist is held resposible for it. So its just a matter of time and some schoolguy that is hired for a crate of beer blinds someone with his 12W ebay purchased projector. When autorities come in and look at the size of the venue compared to the power is being used the laserist get the blame for it. At the end of the day the laserist is resonsible for what power is used. Its time for a permit and a safetytrainings degree that is 1000 usd if you ask me. That way the less serious schoolguys will not be able to do lasershows since they can,t afford the permit. The "real" companies that are taking things more serously can afford it as they can charge a reasonable price for their shows since there is less competition in the low end market. People that have done safetyytraining are more aware of how dangerous it is to use high power in small rooms and with that gained knowledge they also can better explain it to the eventguys.No one wishes someone to loosses his eyesight. In most small venues 3 watt is more then enough even with a less good beamquallity but the eventguys now are making the rules. Time for some permits

considering the OP is in the US I doubt he will be doing any audience scanning so eye safety really isn't a concern

you could safely use a 40W laserscope inside a room if you know what you are doing (not that anyone should mind you, but you could) but you keep safe margins, make sure nobody can access "no go" areas and make sure wherever your beams are terminating you don't have a risk of causing a fire etc

anyway brad I don't know if you remember the outdoor show but when we had Jons big (think it was 12w?) RGB next to my 6W RGB it looked SIGNIFICANTLY brighter, and he had gigantic beams

[masterpj]

safely use something like that in a room I'd have doubts off... the scatter of that is very hazardous to just look at... so indoors it still depends.. also reflective materials at any upper level will be a REALLY big issue. Would be careful saying that overhead is that safe automatically.