Pangolin overpriced?

[norty303]

We like to hear what people have to say, even when it is contrary to our policies.

Absolutely! I don't think manufacturers in this day and age can afford to ignore views and issues that customers experience with their products - essentially forums like this are free market intelligence, ignore at your peril! (as they say...)

[DZ]

then you should be working with us on our next-generation platform for laser professionals...

Hmmmmm, sounds like I need to start saving my pennies. Guess I'll be upgrading from the QM2K to the QMKicksAllKindsofAss card. (AKA - QMKAKA)

[flecom]

No, not really. I made those comparisons because those are professional level products that are in a similar price range to QM2000 Intro, but more to the point, they are products sold by established companies that set their prices based on supply and demand. (this is a common business practice...)

then I think you missed my point, I will state it again...

I DO NOT THINK PANGOLIN IS OVERPRICED

I think $1500 for an intro system is quite peachy, and $500~600 for an FB3... well, I don't see how ANYONE can argue with that price... I am ONLY talking about the cost of adding ADDITIONAL QM2000 cards to an EXISTING LD2000 setup... nothing more

your comparisons were of expensive, professional products... but they were not tied to anything else... I may have an expensive server operating system, and really expensive 10GbE cards, but they are not in any way tied together... when I buy a 10GbE card from Intel I do not have to buy it with a bundled copy of Server 2008 R2 Enterprise... see how this situation is different?

I cannot buy a QM2000 without LD2000... thats my point, nothing more

I like this statement because I can be smug too and respond with a sentence like: "If you don't like Pangolin's pricing etc, don't buy Pangolin. Problem solved."

if I didn't like my pangolin system I wouldn't be so concerned about this now would I?

just like this country is the best in the world (if you want to argue that one go to the lounge lol) because of its citizens involvement in making it (and how complacency will be the downfall of it)... I complain about this because I think pangolin makes the best laser software/hardware that I have found; and I think a lot more people would do more multi-projector stuff and taking advantage of what pangolin can do with multiple QM cards if the pricing of additional QM's made sense

Just prove what you can do

ok well just how LD2000 knows that my card's serial number is an Intro, BUT I have 3 oscillator banks, why cant you make a range of serial numbers, say, 7 digit numbers, that LD2000 knows if it only sees a 7 digit QM without any regular 4~5 digit QM's it errors out?

OR

I think you mark the cards "intro" "pro" etc in some kind of prom or firmware on the card right? just make another flag called "slave" or "additional" or something that tells the software "hey, this card is not licensed for LD2000"

if you want an easy way to differentiate the cards, remove the DMX connector or something off the card... or one of those "warranty void" type stickers that says clearly "this is an additional output card ONLY!"

I understand that this probably will never happen because of the concentration of the pangolin staff on things that really matter right now like Beyond and finalizing QS2

but I think ESPECIALLY with beyond coming up, multi-projector stuff is going to become a lot more relevant because making incredibly complex scenes and graphics is going to get significantly easier (at least judging by what I saw at SELEM2010) so being able to have multiple projectors drawing multiple objects etc I think is something that is going to become more common

[allthatwhichis]

I've stayed out of this because I understand Bill's stance and everyone's point that it is Bill's buisness model and it is working...

I in no way feel Pangolin is over priced especially with the level of support that is available. Value is added everytime Bill attends a LEM. I don't think I have another product in my house that has that much support.

I have been thinking a lot lately, since I have been making beam shows for multiple projectors, that it would be nice if Pangolin could release a neutered QM2000, or some sort of card that will only see itself as a projection zone controller for a full fledged QM2000; basically exactly what Frank is talking about for the exact same reason. I was satisfied enough to hear there will be a way to controll an FB3 with the QM sometime in the future. I have only been able to thorw together one more projector since I heard this, SELEM 2009 I think, so I am in no real hurry.

Bring on Beyond!!!

[Stuka]

Showtime can generate both MIDI and DMX cues.
QM2000 has DMX IN/OUT.
MIDI can be sent between computers - even across a network - without the need for additional hardware.

QuickShow and LivePRO are already MIDI enabled, and support multiple FB3's.

Why wait?
I'm just sayin...

[White-Light]

@Flecom, I think Bill's point if you read above again was that if he sells QM hardware alone without copies of the software then there's nothing to stop companies running multiple event teams from buying 1 licence and X times QM cards and then running multiple instances in different teams at different show simply by copying the software instead of buying multiple software licences as they should. The point with selling it as a package, is it stop this.

[allthatwhichis]

@Stuka>I thought about that but I ain't neva been able to get DMX to work for me. Not that I have spent too much trying, nor do I have my projectors set up for DMX input. I am lucky to be able to get a beam show made; learning DMX is like learing a whole new system isn't it? I am not sure DMX will do anything against Frank's argument; he has DMX and has put it in shows...

@White-Light> If anyone can figure out a way to make a simple "card" that can do this without a way to have it exploited in some manner it is Bill; I also see numerous reasons why he dosen't. This is one of those you can't please everyone all the time. I wish my Harley sportster had a gas gauge; I seen a Honda similar to my sportster that has a gas gauge... I still drive the Harley and wouldn't think of getting a Honda.

[Stuka]

I thought about that but I ain't neva been able to get DMX to work for me. Not that I have spent too much trying, nor do I have my projectors set up for DMX input. I am lucky to be able to get a beam show made; learning DMX is like learing a whole new system isn't it? I am not sure DMX will do anything against Frank's argument; he has DMX and has put it in shows...

The idea is to use DMX (or MIDI, which actually seems easier) tracks and cues from within Showtime to remotely trigger cues / sequences in a separately running QuickShow (or LivePRO) which is controlling the FB3(s).

Virtually every cue and major feature of QuickShow and LivePro are MIDI enabled, which means they can be controlled by an external MIDI source - which can be an external MIDI controller, or a MIDI control signal from another piece of software.

Granted, while this may be a bit more work than running everything natively under Showtime (at least until you get used to it), it actually gives the Showtime programmer a way to trigger some of the features / cues that may be unique to the other software packages, while still maintaining Showtime as the master controller.

Also, since QuickShow now features DMX output control using the Enttec USB-Pro DMX interface, you can now easily setup complicated DMX cues under QuickShow, then trigger them with a quick, simple MIDI effect cue from within Showtime. This would be a great way to add external DMX-controlled lights, fog machines, etc. under Showtime control.

I haven't played with this a whole lot yet, and to use this setup may require running the QM control on one computer, and FB3 on another (that has been my test setup)
~ Probably not THAT big of a deal, since I'm probably not the only laser hobbyist that has access to multiple computers at home!
And as I've mentioned, the MIDI implementation actually can be done without any additional external hardware!

Anyhow, this is how I plan to use my "Jolly Green" - and a few other DMX toys - for the foreseeable future...

PS -

I just reread this, and it does sound like I've drunk a lot of Pango kool-aid!!

Hey Bill -
y'all hiring?

[flecom]

@Flecom, I think Bill's point if you read above again was that if he sells QM hardware alone without copies of the software then there's nothing to stop companies running multiple event teams from buying 1 licence and X times QM cards and then running multiple instances in different teams at different show simply by copying the software instead of buying multiple software licences as they should. The point with selling it as a package, is it stop this.

well thats why I was saying, make a QM that cannot operate independently

The idea is to use DMX (or MIDI, which actually seems easier) tracks and cues from within Showtime to remotely trigger cues / sequences in a separately running QuickShow (or LivePRO) which is controlling the FB3(s).

yes I am highly considering doing this... Bill has already stated that the QM and FB3 will work together but only in QuickShow which for making shows seems a bit limited (purposely)

but the problem I see with doing that is there might be slight delays in the QM > DMX > DMX > FB3 chain but it should probably be fine

the other thing is while this would work for fancy beamshows (probably) making fancy graphics shows where you have multiple projectors drawing multiple objects would be pretty limited I think unless you REALLY worked at it...

but it is a valid workaround...

[polishedball]

Hehe. I always love it when people tell us how easy our job should be. My response is always the same. If you can do it, we'll hire you!! SERIOUSLY!! Just prove what you can do and we'll put you to work right away, because if you'd be able to do this, then you should be working with us on our next-generation platform for laser professionals...


Best regards,

William Benner

You really can't be serious on this one. This is extremely easy to do on serialized PCI devices. I have written software for CNC water jet cutters that is full price for the first PCI I/O then a bit over half price for each additional head you want to control.

If your software source is available please link to it, in my case the software initializes only on numbered cards, but all slave cards are letters, but allowed to run the software just not boot the software.