SELEM 9 - August 12-16th 2015 - Sign up now!

[buffo]

The reasons behind the "no trade show" rule are rooted in the very philosophy behind a Laser Enthusiast's Meeting. It is fundamentally a social event for laser enthusiast's. It is not a sales meeting, or a conference, or anything even remotely corporate.

Why? Because once you make it a corporate event, then the very people who started this whole idea (hobbyists) no longer have any reason to attend.

Seriously - ask yourself this question: Do you have any intention of purchasing a laser projector that produces more than 10 watts of output power and costs more than $10,000 in the next year? I suspect that the answer will be "NO" for the vast majority of PL members.

Now, with that in mind, do you see why it is important that the focus of the event NOT shift toward sales, and especially not towards sales of high-end projectors that most people will never buy? Why focus on something that is irrelevant to the majority of SELEM attendees?

There are plenty of trade shows that people can attend if they want to negotiate a volume discount on the latest commercial projector. But SELEM is not one of them. SELEM is more about people coming together to share what they have learned. It's about helping new people get started in this hobby - safely, cost-effectively, and enjoyably. And while fewer and fewer of our members build their own projectors these days, SELEM has always been a place for people to talk about (and show off) their work.

That being said, I welcome the chance for people to meet professionals from the industry at SELEM, but I always warn them that they need to understand the context of this meeting. It's about asking questions, getting answers, sharing stories, helping people, and having a great time. Companies like X-Laser and Pangolin understand this, and that's why they've been welcomed participants in the past. (After all, apart from SELEM, how often do you get a chance to get your scanners tuned by Bill Benner, or get advice on how to file a product report from Dan Goldsmith?)

This year we were approached by two projector manufacturers. They wanted to attend SELEM, and they were interested in bringing their projectors with them. I explained that if they brought their projectors, it would be expected that people (that is, SELEM attendees) would want to open them up, check power levels, run test patterns, and otherwise experiment with the units ON THEIR OWN TERMS. Then, once the initial curiosity wore off, we would put them up on a truss or tripod however we saw fit, and use them to augment the shows we planned to run.

Both companies were OK with that, and they agreed that while they would have someone on-hand to answer individual's questions about the projectors or the company, they would not expect us to block out time on the main stage for them to brag about their company (as you might expect at a trade show).

This is all new ground for us. In the future, if there is *LOTS* of interest in the idea of having projector companies demonstrate their products, we might set up a time slot in one of the upstairs classrooms for something like that. (Similar to what Pangolin does with their "What's New at Pangolin" presentation.)

But remember that Bill's "What's New at Pangolin" presentation was something that was specifically asked for by the people who attended SELEM in the past. Conversely, this whole idea of having projector manufacturer's attend (and possibly demo their wares) came from the projector companies themselves, and not the SELEM attendees. That is why we are treading cautiously for now.

Adam

PS: Evidently "mini-me" (Brad!) was composing his reply at the same time I was. And I do agree with his comments about the problems with vendors having undue influence on the event, as well as the need to avoid any needless sales-related drama. In fact, to avoid the undue influence problem, SELEM has steadfastly refused to allow any kind of corporate "sponsorship" of the event. We all pay our registration fee, so we get to control what we see and do at SELEM.

[HankLloydRight]

Sounds good to me. Thanks Adam and Mini-me for the detailed explanation. Makes a lot of sense that I had not considered. I didn't realize the projectors they might be selling/demoing would be >$10k beasts. I was hoping they would be in the sub-$2k level for real "enthusiasts" not "professionals". In that case, I totally agree with you, that it might be fun to see/play with some expensive equipment -- but really, how many at SELEM would be in the market for them? Very few, I'd think, and the ones that are, likely already have a relationship with those companies, or at least a contact.

[flecom]

Because once you make it a corporate event, then the very people who started this whole idea (hobbyists) no longer have any reason to attend.

I know this is going to sound terrible but I am just being honest here, but I've kind of felt this way for a couple years now, and FLEM which really was a Pluto enthusiasts meet was the final nail for me, the LEMs are good for hanging out but there is really very little in the way of anything new or interesting that isn't from a manufacturer

I don't even remember watching lasers for more than an hour or so last SELEM

[drm916]

Paid... sorry I was late. I totally forgot.

[buffo]

the LEMs are good for hanging out but there is really very little in the way of anything new or interesting that isn't from a manufacturer

The advanced ILDA router from Ed and DZ isn't new and interesting?

The Z5 analog console with color board isn't new and interesting?

All of these were prominently featured at the last FLEM. And we also discussed the USB-WAVE units that DZ makes (though I don't think we had one present). Those are very interesting! In fact, as a direct result of the discussions at FLEM, I decided to purchase one of these units from DZ last month.

Then too, we also had the new Pangolin FB4 and the compact 506 scanners present at FLEM last time. Those were absolutely new and interesting, although I'll grant you that they were from a manufacturer.

I still think there are lots of cool new things to see and do at a LEM, whether it's in Florida or North Carolina or the UK or the island of Utila in the Caribbean. As for the abundance of Pluto II projectors at the last FLEM, you could have brought your projector and your beam rails to even the playing field a bit. That being said, this year at SELEM we will have lots of other gear besides just Plutos.

I don't even remember watching lasers for more than an hour or so last SELEM

Well, you are in a unique position in that you currently own a great deal of laser show content on ADAT, and you have also worked in a planetarium in the past running shows, so it might be that you are simply burned out from watching the same shows over and over.

But laser shows are just 1 part of what happens at SELEM. I'm sure there are other things you'd find enjoyable. (And for the record, I don't think I've ever had time to watch more than an hour or two of laser shows at ANY SELEM, just because there are so many other things competing for my time.)

Adam

[buffo]

this statement strikes me as REALLY odd:

"but in the end the projectors would be placed on a truss or tripod like all the other gear in the venue and used to augment the laser displays as we saw fit. (Emphasis on what "we" feel is appropriate, not necessarily what they might want us to do with it.)"

My point is that if we put the projector up on a truss, it's just another projector that is part of the overall show. Up there things are more equal (with the obvious exception of power output of course).

If you are genuinely curious about a projector you see on a truss and want to ask some questions, that's fine. Go talk to the person who brought the projector. If it's a PL member, that's cool, and if it's a representative from <insert laser company name here>, that's cool as well.

But if you are there just to watch the pretty lights, you can do that too and never be bothered with who's projector it is, what lasers it uses, how much power it makes, or what it costs.

By stating up front that we plan to put the projector where we feel it belongs, we avoid the feeling of "oh, <insert laser company name here> just loaned us their most expensive projector - we really should put it in the center of the auditorium so the maximum number of people will see it". Never mind that the projector might be a 40 watt monster that has a good chance of setting the curtains on fire in the auditorium...

If that same projector is sitting on a pedestal in the lobby with a sign on it and a talking head standing next to it, then it's no longer part of the show. Now it's an exhibit - one of many that will be vying for your attention. And at least a little part of you will feel obligated to oblige the salesman.

The difference may seem subtle, but to me the context is important. I don't want companies to think that by bringing equipment to SELEM, that buys them favorable treatment.

Adam

[planters]

Keep in mind, Adam has been in communication with them and we have not. Also, what does SELEM get in return for bringing an audience together for these companies to market to? I'm sure Adam is no fool. If these companies were to provide huge support in the form of catering or labor there might be some incentive to cut them more slack. Let's say they donated the projectors they brought to be awarded as door prizes to the participants on the last day? This certainly would discourage the +$10,000 models.

[SaltyRobot]

Thanks for the context Adam. It makes sense. Would I like to see the inside of a $10K projector hell yeah but I guess the hard sales aspect of a trade show booth would be a turn off. Would I want to see a $10K projector in action playing a show hell yeah but would I want to see the content that that company wants to push on us likely not. I would want to see my own content or some other hobby content flow through the system. Sounds like you are making the correct decision this year.

[buffo]

Bless you, Eric, for reading between the lines.

Although even if a company were willing to foot the entire bill for the event and cater it to boot, in the end it might not be worth it. (Would depend a lot on the company and how they handled it.)

Granted, SELEM is a lot of work for all of us, and $100 is a good bit of money for each of us to fork over (though even that pales in comparison to hotel and travel cost). But for that work (and money), we buy our independence. We control the event. Totally.

Contrary to what some may believe, I do worry a great deal about the integrity of the event. If someone recommends projector A or controller B, I want it to be based on the merits of the product and not the fact that the company donated food (or funds) to the event.

Although it would be interesting if we had a $10,000 projector to give away as a door prize!

Adam

PS: Speaking of door prizes, we actually won't have all that much in the way of door prizes this year - sorry folks!

[buffo]

Just a note to everyone following this discussion: Gary is not mad at me, and I am not mad at Gary. No one is being attacked in this thread.

I *value* input like this. I'm not looking for an echo chamber here. If people have different views, other ideas, or feedback of any kind (even if it's negative) about SELEM, I need to hear it. That's how I learn about problems that need to be fixed!

I will try to give as complete an answer as I can. If there are things that, in the interest of preventing further drama, should not be posted in public, I am happy to discuss them in private.

Gary and I have discussed this topic some more via PM, and yes - there are a few details about this year's SELEM that I'd like to keep private for now. However, Gary's experience at his very first SELEM is exactly the sort of thing I am trying to prevent. I want to avoid that sort of thing in the future if at all possible.

That being said, this year is sort of a trial to see what it's like with manufacturing representatives present. If all goes well, and if the general consensus is that we'd like to see more, then I can see us moving towards something like the car show environment that Gary mentioned at some point. Small steps though. Small steps.

Adam